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Old 02-01-2010, 04:47   #81
Alaskapopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Please reference your article. I sounds familar to something I read long ago. I was not saying that the 357 sig was any better in certain circumstances than a fast 40 or 45, but it is better than any 9mm I have tried. I personally like it better than the 40. The 45 is a larger platform. I am on my way out of the door, but I will locate recent articles. Although I have not spoken to the Air Marchalls or the Secret Service, the Highway Patrol people I have spoke to have found it very effective. Since you also have experience with the cartridge this will be an interesting conversation.

Jim
Dr. Martin Fackler wrong that article. The 357 sig expands the same as the 9mm with simular bullets and it penetrates about the same. Those are the two factors that matter. Muzzle energy means zip at handgun levels. Yes the 357 sig has done ok in some shootings then again everyone that is using the 147 grain 9mm Federal HST is also happy with its results in actual shootings. If you like the 357 sig use it with confidence it will do fine. But at the end of the day its just another choice and not a wonder bullet.
I encourage you to visit this forum and do some reading.
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:59   #82
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"Dr. Martin Fackler wrong that article. The 357 sig expands the same as the 9mm with simular bullets and it penetrates about the same. Those are the two factors that matter. Muzzle energy means zip at handgun levels."

Hogwash, with that argument a .38 special is the same as a .357 magnum. Shot placement is the key but greater muzzle energy = more energy in the target and more trauma.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:26   #83
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
For starters I have seen less and less of them at leo training. No agency in my state issues them. Granted we are a small state. If you look at the numbers of agencies issuing them today vs 5 years ago it has stayed about the same or declined slightly. I used to be a huge 357 sig fan until I did my own testing and did a lot of reading of Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts. Basically you get an extra 100 to 200 fps no more expansion or penetration and you did get more recoil. I dropped it several years back. Waste of time.
I have owned over 8 different 357 sig pistols and shot thousands of rounds down range in that caliber. So I have a right to speak to its merits. I too have owned about every modern caliber of handgun there is. As for the smaller 9mm frame platform. The best caliber for that platform is the 9mm. In the larger 45 acp platform the 45 acp is the best. I say pick your gun first then pick your caliber. If you like Glocks get a 9mm. The rest have issues. If you want a 1911 get it in 45 acp. If you want a 40 get a Smith M&P, Sig 229, HK USP.

Don't take it from me listen to the experts.
.357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.

We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.

The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.

To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.

Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.

They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.

In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.

In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.

Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.

Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.33

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.22

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.33
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:44   #84
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Originally Posted by 9mmdude View Post
"Dr. Martin Fackler wrong that article. The 357 sig expands the same as the 9mm with simular bullets and it penetrates about the same. Those are the two factors that matter. Muzzle energy means zip at handgun levels."

Hogwash, with that argument a .38 special is the same as a .357 magnum. Shot placement is the key but greater muzzle energy = more energy in the target and more trauma.
Exactly. This comes from "experts" who put Jello gelatin tests above actual shootings that completely refute their findings.

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Old 02-01-2010, 08:12   #85
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If I owned a bunch of .357 sig pistols and one day decided to sell them and go with other calibres I would convince myself the cartridge didn't matter too.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:17   #86
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Dr. Martin Fackler wrong that article. The 357 sig expands the same as the 9mm with simular bullets and it penetrates about the same. Those are the two factors that matter. Muzzle energy means zip at handgun levels. Yes the 357 sig has done ok in some shootings then again everyone that is using the 147 grain 9mm Federal HST is also happy with its results in actual shootings. If you like the 357 sig use it with confidence it will do fine. But at the end of the day its just another choice and not a wonder bullet.
I encourage you to visit this forum and do some reading.
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
Pat
Fackler must have wrote that article last week. Oh wait, he hasn't done anything in like 20yrs, or whatever.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:29   #87
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Actually its popularity is on the down swing not the upswing. Its not a bad round but it does nothing that the 9mm can't do.
Pat

Riiiight. Just like you said this about the 10mm, which is happily on the rise.

And you fire thousands of rounds at cardboard and now you can speak of the .357 sig's merits. Does the gun talk to you everytime you pull the trigger? Are you a target whisperer? Pat, do you ever have anything with substance to say? You never back anything up, all you can do is say "Fackler, Roberts... Fackler, Roberts"... who have not proven anything in the way of terminal ballistics. What's the most recent thing Fackler has put out?

One day you'll realize that gel doesn't tell you what will happens on the street. The street tells you what will happen on the street. When you see this you may change your name back to "355sigfan".
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:31   #88
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If I owned a bunch of .357 sig pistols and one day decided to sell them and go with other calibres I would convince myself the cartridge didn't matter too.
I like you.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:40   #89
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Those who worship at the idol of ballistic testing scorn the unrepentant who remain standing when true believers fall down and genuflect. Indomitable those who remain standing resolutely insist that their own personal experience is the final authority from which there is no legitimate appeal. This is true no matter what might be the caliber that is currently being debated. It is a quandary that has continued since David open carried a slingshot into the ancient equivalent of a back alley to deal with a local bad boy named Goliath. Sincerely. Brucev.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:12   #90
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I dunno, I think the 257 sig is pretty awesome. Although I only have paper research to validate my opinion but I am starting to think its right up there with the big boys and a huge improvement over 9mm.

The other encouragining thing I have noticed is that a lot of people indicate that the recoil is nto as snappy as 40 and more of a push like 45. Again, I'm no expert and I am usually wrong 9 times out of 10, but I have seen a trend that indicates th 357sig is up there, just as I have seen a trend that the 45 and 100 and 40 are awesome calibers.

The 9mm is good and I wouldn't hesitat to trust my life to it, but there seems to be a gap between the 9 and the 40/45/10/357s
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:42   #91
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I realize that this is not the HST and only the HS, but subsonic 147 grain loads have not been all that good.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...=15&Weight=147

There are not many examples with the 357 sig, but it looks promising.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...r=6&Weight=125

So I see your Flacker and raise you an Evan Marshall. There are many current articles on the effectiveness.

Here are some recent articles not based on Jello. Again, I am not saying that the 357 sig is the best, but I would in no way compare it to a 9mm. There is much more to consider than penatration and expansion. The 180 gr 40 S&W loads are not as effective as the lighter and faster loads, but they penatrate and expand just fine.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...6/ai_84428728/

I only include this article because it is the round I carry.

http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html

Last edited by PghJim; 02-01-2010 at 10:04..
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:12   #92
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If you like Glocks get a 9mm. The rest have issues.
Neither the G20C I used to have or the G29 I have now have or have had any issues. What issues are they supposed to have??? I think you're over reaching with your statement. Besides that the 357SIG is generally considered to be as clear as any in issues by merit of the bottleneck cartridge design. Did you handload a bunch of 357SIG that ended up being poor performers???

And what about the 40S&W chambered glocks? An extreme amount of LE/Agencies carry them. Someone must have forgot to tell them about the issues. Then there's the Glock 45s. Someone dropped a G21 out of an airplane. When he found it only the bottom of the magwell was still above ground. It fired perfectly. Not to mention all the other torture tests he put it through and some mega amount of rounds through it and it still operated flawlessly.

I might be going out on a limb here, but I don't believe the majority of Glocks have any issues at all, and more than likely less than the guns provided through other manufacturers.
Quote:
In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.
Can you elaborate?

About over penetration you say;
1) good to intersect all vital structures possible, and/but
2) waste of wounding potential

Isn't that contradictory?
Quote:
In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.
How much better expansion when leaving out HSTs, as HSTs are basically the one exception to the rule?
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:30   #93
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I'm going to post this here because I posted this in the other 357SIG forum. I will also preface it by saying that someone who has more of a background in statistics than I do said that the article has no merit. I disagree, but as I said, this other person claims to have a little background in stats. I do not.

This paper comes from a site that hosts and peer-reviews papers on physics and mathematics, so as far as I'm concerned, if it's still up it has survived peer review. Arxiv.org frequently has papers go to The Astrophysical Journal and Astronomy and Astrophysics.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

It won't load on this computer, but if you scan the article it talks about the differences in pressure (inside the thoracic cavity) between 9mm and 357SIG. It's a 3-fold difference. Later on, it takes the testing of each caliber in deer. They shoot 5 deer a piece and measure the distance that the deer ran. Again 357SIG comes out on top, as the deer shot with the 357SIG only ran half the distance (thus a quicker kill).

You can read other papers on pressure wave theory, it seems to be contested. I will say, though, that I'll take results in animals before I'll take results in ballistics gelatin. One is real life, one is, simply, not.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:33   #94
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I'm going to post this here because I posted this in the other 357SIG forum. I will also preface it by saying that someone who has more of a background in statistics than I do said that the article has no merit. I disagree, but as I said, this other person claims to have a little background in stats. I do not.

This paper comes from a site that hosts and peer-reviews papers on physics and mathematics, so as far as I'm concerned, if it's still up it has survived peer review. Arxiv.org frequently has papers go to The Astrophysical Journal and Astronomy and Astrophysics.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

It won't load on this computer, but if you scan the article it talks about the differences in pressure (inside the thoracic cavity) between 9mm and 357SIG. It's a 3-fold difference. Later on, it takes the testing of each caliber in deer. They shoot 5 deer a piece and measure the distance that the deer ran. Again 357SIG comes out on top, as the deer shot with the 357SIG only ran half the distance (thus a quicker kill).

You can read other papers on pressure wave theory, it seems to be contested. I will say, though, that I'll take results in animals before I'll take results in ballistics gelatin. One is real life, one is, simply, not.
I have to use this little guy cause I usually don't get a chance.

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Old 02-01-2010, 11:51   #95
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Originally Posted by dahahn View Post
I'm going to post this here because I posted this in the other 357SIG forum. I will also preface it by saying that someone who has more of a background in statistics than I do said that the article has no merit. I disagree, but as I said, this other person claims to have a little background in stats. I do not.

This paper comes from a site that hosts and peer-reviews papers on physics and mathematics, so as far as I'm concerned, if it's still up it has survived peer review. Arxiv.org frequently has papers go to The Astrophysical Journal and Astronomy and Astrophysics.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

It won't load on this computer, but if you scan the article it talks about the differences in pressure (inside the thoracic cavity) between 9mm and 357SIG. It's a 3-fold difference. Later on, it takes the testing of each caliber in deer. They shoot 5 deer a piece and measure the distance that the deer ran. Again 357SIG comes out on top, as the deer shot with the 357SIG only ran half the distance (thus a quicker kill).

You can read other papers on pressure wave theory, it seems to be contested. I will say, though, that I'll take results in animals before I'll take results in ballistics gelatin. One is real life, one is, simply, not.
It is contested by some in the most arbitrary general sense, but with ZERO evidence to support their anti-ballistic pressure wave stance. Dr. Courtney has done other follow up work to support his theory (I'll try to post it in the near future when I can locate it, just don't have time right now), not to mention all of the other scientific studies done by other scientists that support his theory.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:53   #96
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I have to use this little guy cause I usually don't get a chance.
I don't want to incite anything, I just want to add something else to this discussion.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:01   #97
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I don't want to incite anything, I just want to add something else to this discussion.
No No, it's cool, you just don't realize what you posted... it's a big can of worms that can get you busy in CC. It is my favorite subject though...

And I favor your oppinion, which lead you to post that link.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:13   #98
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I think DocGKR had a good response to the 357 Sig round in the 4th page of the thread " Observations from actual shooting". His response as Follows:


patscrazy--I am curious why you would think .357 Sig penetrates common cover better than other calibers; didn't your agency conduct testing or at least review the results from other agencies, such as the FBI BRF, prior to selecting you new caliber?

While .357 Sig is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the 357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI BRF. Most 357 Sig loadings, unless they fail to expand, do not offer excessive penetration; in fact, the exact opposite, under-penetration, can be a problem. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and 357 Sig loads. In addition to having tested virtually all the handgun ammo available in lab settings, we have also had the opportunity to analyze numerous OIS incident forensic results and have not observed any greater incapacitation in actual shootings with users of 357 Sig loads compared to those users of 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP who are using equivalent modern, well engineered ammunition.

The 357 Sig is not a bad cartridge, it just does not seem to offer anything that is not already available, at the price of less ammunition capacity than the similarly performing 9mm, as well as having greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon compared to other service pistol cartridges. On the other hand, since the 357 Sig is a modern cartridge benefiting from the latest engineering concepts, the bullets loaded with it have generally all been designed and tested using the latest FBI, IWBA, etc... testing protocols. This results in more robust terminal performance, less failures to expand, and thus greater tissue damage than will be found with older projectile designs. In addition, since according to data from Fackler and others, approximately 50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms, it is possible that the increased blast, flash, and noise of the 357 Sig enhances psychological perceptions of being shot.

In discussing this issue with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies, he stated that he didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.

Contemplate this--Prior to transitioning to .40 S&W, the CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers. Yet despite the decrease in velocity, the CHP has continued to report greater success in OIS incidents (both better terminal performance, as well as intermediate barrier ability) with their .40 S&W 180 gr JHP than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP they previously issued.

Let’s compare apples to apples—below is factory test data from various Winchester LE loads in different calibers, Ranger-T as well as Ranger Bonded. How does the .357 Sig compare to the other service calibers with respect to intermediate barrier penetration?

FBI Test Protocols:
Bare Gelatin at 10ft
Denim, 4 Layers at 10ft
Heavy Clothing at 10ft
Steel, 2 pieces of 20 gauge at 10ft
Wallboard, 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board at 10ft
Plywood, 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood at 10ft
Automobile Glass, 1 piece 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees at 10ft

9mm 127gr +P+ RA9TA at 1250fps:
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.64”
Denim: 12.2”/.68”
Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.68”
Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Plywood: 12”/.68”
Steel: 20.5”/.40”
Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”

9mm 147gr RA9T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

357Sig 125gr RA357SIGT at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 10.9”/.63”
Denim: 12.1”/.66”
Heavy Cloth: 10.7”/.69”
Wallboard: 15.4”/.48”
Plywood: 12.2”/.66”
Steel: 23.4”/.41”
Auto Glass: 10.3”/.49”

.40S&W 180gr RA40T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.60”
Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Steel: 17”/.52”
Auto Glass: 12”/.61”

.45ACP 230gr +P RA45TP at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.2”/.79”
Denim: 15.2”/.78”
Heavy Cloth: 15.7”/.78”
Wallboard: 13.8”/.75”
Plywood: 14.6”/.77”
Steel: 20.6”/.53”
Auto Glass: 13.6”/.60”

How about bonded bullets?

9mm 124gr +P at 1180 fps:
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Steel: 22”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr at 995fps:
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Steel: 19”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

357Sig 125gr RA357SB at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr at 1070fps:
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45ACP 230gr RA45B at 905fps:
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

As can be seen above, basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber.

Don't over-think this subject; projectiles, particularly handgun bullets, simply poke holes in things, just like arrows, spears, daggers, or shivs. The only difference is that bullets allow you to poke the holes from further away... Since shot placement is the key with handguns, if given the choice, I'd much rather be defended by a guy who practices with 500 rounds per month of 9mm, than one who caries a .357 Sig, but only shoots 500 rounds per year.

As always, the most important things to focus on are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:27   #99
dahahn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
And I favor your oppinion, which lead you to post that link.
I recently bought a G32, and I wanted to do a little research before I ordered. I'll admit, it was to clear my conscience...to make sure I'll spend $529 on something good, not something I'll regret.

Courtney and Courtney did a study that evaluated the Marshall and Sanow data set, and set to debunk some of the criticisms it received. They compared it to another, independently derived data set, the Strasbourg goat tests, and found that the data correlated between the two. That paper can be found here: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

The same authors have another paper that talks about pressure wave, and uses equations to come up with the overall probability of a One Shot Stop (referred to as OSS). They mention that the 357SIG round is very close to a 357 Magnum load at 125 gr and less, therefore I inferred that the OSS ccharacteristics would be very similar. The OSS % for the 357 Magnum is in the mid to high 80% range (86.5% to 89.3%), whereas the 9mm 124gr bullets were from 78.9% to 83.5% (for a +P+ round). Paper here: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf

While I understand that I can't attribute the same characteristics of a 357 Magnum to the 357SIG, even inside a low margin of error (as the 2 are supposed to behave very similarly) the OSS percentage would be grater for a 357SIG than it would be for a 9mm. In a self defense situation, this is what I want when my life is on the line.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:51   #100
uz2bUSMC
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dahahn,

No worries bro, I've been through all of that since day one. I'm vary familiar with it...
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