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Old 01-24-2010, 00:32   #61
Glolt20-91
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Just yanking your chain. I love the 10mm too and have a G29 and 3 1911's calibered in 10mm. However, I rarely carry the G29 in that the 357 sig fits into a smaller platform and God cursed me with small hands.
I have a G20 and G20 SF, in hindsight, I think the 10mm/1911 combination would be a better carry. I'd be interested in feedback with your 10mm/1911s vs the .357SIG. If you handload, try the 1911/.38Super; it'll also load with .357mag bullets and has the same COAL as 10mm. I'm also testing 155gr XTPs in a 1911/.400 Corbon set-up; seems to be a lot more accurate than either of my Glock 10mms.

When I get enough water bottles, I want to retest the 125gr GD upper 1400s (N105) vs 155gr GD (if any are left) at 1400s + ??? Longshot.

My money is on the 125gr GD, how about you?

Bob
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:01   #62
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The 10mm loads from Double Tap beat the 357 sig and I generally carry the 165 gr. Golden Sabers which perform really well on water jugs. My standard hand load is a180 gr. Seirra HP with 11. something of AA7. I would have to go and look up the exact amount, but I get 1200 fps out of the 1911 and it is a very accurate load.

I have trouble carrying a full size 1911 and I had the grip reduced on the G29 it is not bad, but I shoot faster with the G32 in 357 sig. I found that CorBon 125 JHP leaves my G32 at 1430fps and has devestating effects and I generally carry that. It is better than my handloads with Power Pistol at 1450 and 125 GD's.

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Old 01-24-2010, 09:48   #63
uz2bUSMC
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
The 155grn GD can be pretty explosive, aswell... from a 6' bbl!
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Old 01-24-2010, 13:38   #64
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
I'm also testing 155gr XTPs in a 1911/.400 Corbon set-up; seems to be a lot more accurate than either of my Glock 10mms.

When I get enough water bottles, I want to retest the 125gr GD upper 1400s (N105) vs 155gr GD (if any are left) at 1400s + ??? Longshot.

My money is on the 125gr GD, how about you?

Bob
Can't wait to find out if the 155gr XTP will hold up to the velocity or not. And overall, it will be a great comparison!


Craig
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Old 01-24-2010, 22:54   #65
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The 155grn GD can be pretty explosive, aswell... from a 6' bbl!
Depending on powder, the 6" KKM barrel typically generates about 90fps over the 4.6" barrel; I'll test both lengths.

Bob
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Old 01-25-2010, 22:15   #66
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Depending on powder, the 6" KKM barrel typically generates about 90fps over the 4.6" barrel; I'll test both lengths.

Bob
Sweet!

If it works out, some in various forums have mentioned Longshot as producing very low levels of flash. Whenever you get around to it, could you also pop off a few rounds at night and give us your thoughts on that?


Craig
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Old 01-26-2010, 21:39   #67
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
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Old 01-26-2010, 22:55   #68
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But really, a Corvette is simply a fast Chevett, right?
Not really....have you seen a chevett trying to turn or brake from 160 mph ?

LOL...no but really I see your point.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:24   #69
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
That is why the Air Marshalls are using it. It is not as simple as that. It is a very effective cartridge and if you look around there are good choices in bullets and there will be more. As one who has used the cartridge for over 12 years, I cannot understand why people want to marginalize this round.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:30   #70
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LOL...no but really I see your point.
Since he was responding to me, I do not see his point. But I took it as humor. The response was to the statement that a 357 sig is just a fast 9mm. But truly that is just like saying a 357 magnum is just a fast 38 special. A true statement but the qualifier "just" fails to appreciate the importance in higher velocity.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:38   #71
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
There are over 130 choices for .357sig ammo. Law enforcement likes .357sig because it has a great track record in real life shootings. Do your homework:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=.357+sig+real+life+shootings
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:28   #72
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I'm a fan of 357sig & also own/carry/shoot the other main semi auto duty calibers: (9, 40, 45). To me, it's a simple matter of choosing the right tool for the right job. If barrier penetration is a key requirement, like BGs shooting/hiding behind their vehicles on a traffic stop, then 357sig is a real winner. If you're working or fighting for your life in a CQB environment, it's hard to argue against calibers w/a larger sectional density. If you work for an agency w/LOTs of Officers & high training & supply costs, like NYPD, the benefits of 9mm are a no brainer.

Now, a valid 357sig question I often hear is, "If it's sooo good against barriers, then why would the Fed Air Marshalls choose this caliber? Won't it go straight thru the BG & the airplane as well?" Without getting into all the details as to how I know, the answer is the FAMs we're looking for a round that could produce, dare I say it, instant incapacitation, & 357sig did pretty well in the reporting they reviewed. Like was said before, there's something to that extra velocity that at this time we can't measure or quantify, but it works. Again, you need the right tool for the right job. Know what your job is & pick the right tool. And please keep in mind that your job and mine may be different, too.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:40   #73
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To me, it's a simple matter of choosing the right tool for the right job. If barrier penetration is a key requirement, like BGs shooting/hiding behind their vehicles on a traffic stop, then 357sig is a real winner.
Or if you are a private citisen that has to fire throug your own car door or windshield as you sit in your own car and are approached by the BG.
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:35   #74
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that, too, but to play devils advocate, that scenario is more about tactics than caliber.
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Old 01-27-2010, 20:23   #75
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Without getting into all the details as to how I know, the answer is the FAMs we're looking for a round that could produce, dare I say it, instant incapacitation, & 357sig did pretty well in the reporting they reviewed. Like was said before, there's something to that extra velocity that at this time we can't measure or quantify, but it works.
Exactly the kind of insight I like to hear about!

Can you elaborate any further at all? Even a tidbit? Site a nonclassified source? Anything?


Craig
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Old 02-01-2010, 00:50   #76
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Originally Posted by GunFighter45ACP View Post
I'm a fan of 357sig & also own/carry/shoot the other main semi auto duty calibers: (9, 40, 45). To me, it's a simple matter of choosing the right tool for the right job. If barrier penetration is a key requirement, like BGs shooting/hiding behind their vehicles on a traffic stop, then 357sig is a real winner. If you're working or fighting for your life in a CQB environment, it's hard to argue against calibers w/a larger sectional density. If you work for an agency w/LOTs of Officers & high training & supply costs, like NYPD, the benefits of 9mm are a no brainer.

Now, a valid 357sig question I often hear is, "If it's sooo good against barriers, then why would the Fed Air Marshalls choose this caliber? Won't it go straight thru the BG & the airplane as well?" Without getting into all the details as to how I know, the answer is the FAMs we're looking for a round that could produce, dare I say it, instant incapacitation, & 357sig did pretty well in the reporting they reviewed. Like was said before, there's something to that extra velocity that at this time we can't measure or quantify, but it works. Again, you need the right tool for the right job. Know what your job is & pick the right tool. And please keep in mind that your job and mine may be different, too.
Also, at least from watching Mythbusters, you will not get a catastrophic depressurization from shooting through an airplane's walls, or its windows. Maybe I don't remember it right, but I am pretty sure that was the conclusion.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:34   #77
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Is there anyone around here with the intel behind the 357SIGs growing popularity with LE and the cumulative reasons why?

More/Less, it really is simply a fast 9 with inherently near perfect functioning characteristics in pistols. It has it's own line of 125gr bullets from most bullet manufacturers to handle the added velocity.

Yet it produces a little more recoil than 9mm and LE are still opting for it. Then again it doesn't recoil anymore than 40 (differently yes, more no). I suppose muzzle flash at night isn't much of an issue anymore with the low flash powders availble today.

But still, why is LE popularity still growing with the 357SIG? Are they seeing a difference in physical wounding characteristics? We do in animals, so I suppose we do in humans too.

Is it proving to stop fights faster? What's giving this little round so much clout? Anybody know anything definitive?

In Arizona you can get virtually as much of it as you want at just about any Walmart when everything else is sold out. Though most of the Walmarts are still limiting us to 6 boxes per day.


Craig
Actually its popularity is on the down swing not the upswing. Its not a bad round but it does nothing that the 9mm can't do.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:46   #78
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Actually its popularity is on the down swing not the upswing. Its not a bad round but it does nothing that the 9mm can't do.
Pat
Pat - Please share where you are getting that information. Everything I have read is that it is growing and to make the claim that it does nothing that the 9mm cannot do can only come from a lack of experience with this round. Trust me, I will always carry my G32 before my G19 no matter how many +'s you put on that 9mm. Everyone seems to want to marginalize this round (357 sig), which I cannot understand. Hey if you do not like it carry a 9mm, but do not tell me it will not do anything a 9mm would not do. I own just about every modern caliber and have been shooting 357 sig for about 12 years. If it were just a novelty, I think I would have stuck it is the safe by now and be carrying my G19. I have shot a lot of things with both rounds and the 357 sig has the edge. I personally believe it is the best caliber for the smaller 9mm frame platform.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:59   #79
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Pat - Please share where you are getting that information. Everything I have read is that it is growing and to make the claim that it does nothing that the 9mm cannot do can only come from a lack of experience with this round. Trust me, I will always carry my G32 before my G19 no matter how many +'s you put on that 9mm. Everyone seems to want to marginalize this round (357 sig), which I cannot understand. Hey if you do not like it carry a 9mm, but do not tell me it will not do anything a 9mm would not do. I own just about every modern caliber and have been shooting 357 sig for about 12 years. If it were just a novelty, I think I would have stuck it is the safe by now and be carrying my G19. I have shot a lot of things with both rounds and the 357 sig has the edge. I personally believe it is the best caliber for the smaller 9mm frame platform.
For starters I have seen less and less of them at leo training. No agency in my state issues them. Granted we are a small state. If you look at the numbers of agencies issuing them today vs 5 years ago it has stayed about the same or declined slightly. I used to be a huge 357 sig fan until I did my own testing and did a lot of reading of Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts. Basically you get an extra 100 to 200 fps no more expansion or penetration and you did get more recoil. I dropped it several years back. Waste of time.
I have owned over 8 different 357 sig pistols and shot thousands of rounds down range in that caliber. So I have a right to speak to its merits. I too have owned about every modern caliber of handgun there is. As for the smaller 9mm frame platform. The best caliber for that platform is the 9mm. In the larger 45 acp platform the 45 acp is the best. I say pick your gun first then pick your caliber. If you like Glocks get a 9mm. The rest have issues. If you want a 1911 get it in 45 acp. If you want a 40 get a Smith M&P, Sig 229, HK USP.

Don't take it from me listen to the experts.
.357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.

We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.

The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.

To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.

Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.

They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.

In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.

In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.

Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.

Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:29   #80
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Please reference your article. I sounds familar to something I read long ago. I was not saying that the 357 sig was any better in certain circumstances than a fast 40 or 45, but it is better than any 9mm I have tried. I personally like it better than the 40. The 45 is a larger platform. I am on my way out of the door, but I will locate recent articles. Although I have not spoken to the Air Marchalls or the Secret Service, the Highway Patrol people I have spoke to have found it very effective. Since you also have experience with the cartridge this will be an interesting conversation.

Jim
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