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Old 12-25-2012, 19:12   #751
rustytxrx
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Hmmm first two rounds in 8" circle center mass wins. Does it matter that it is good defensive bullet in 9mm, .357, 40 or .45.

I am saying that you guys are looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. My local police department has to qualify once a year. Shooting on static target range.

It does not matter what caliber you give them IMO. They are not trained to use it. They qualify at the gun club I shoot at. I have been range officer several times when some have qualified. They are great guys and I like them a lot. I can tell you they are not combat shooters. Caliber does not matter. In this case at least training does.

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Old 12-25-2012, 19:23   #752
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Hmmm first two rounds in 8" circle center mass wins. Does it matter that it is good defensive bullet in 9mm, .357, 40 or .45.

I am saying that you guys are looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. My local police department has to qualify once a year. Shooting on static target range.

It does not matter what caliber you give them IMO. They are not trained to use it. They qualify at the gun club I shoot at. I have been range officer several times when some have qualified. They are great guys and I like them a lot. I can tell you they are not combat shooters. Caliber does not matter.

Rusty
This is like saying that all people respond to gunshots the same, that is not the case. Caliber does matter. You can see by street results that some assailants will function after being hit multiple times in the boiler room. You can also see that caliber is pertinent on the street when it comes to stopping, else everyone would train and fight with a cheap low recoiling round such as the .22. The rest of what you say sounds similar to when I call tech support for my cell. Don't know if the eggnog is treating you really good today or you are loosing control of your Ipad but you gotta start making better sense than that. And don't skim when you are counting scripts, that will likely ef up your posting, as well.
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Old 12-25-2012, 19:31   #753
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LOL.....so you think giving LEOs the right caliber would do more than training them to be combat shooters????

Drunk or sober I know that is wrong
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Old 12-25-2012, 19:34   #754
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LOL.....so you think giving LEOs the right caliber would do more than training them to be combat shooters????

Drunk or sober I know that is wrong
No. Training is most important. What is the right caliber?
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Old 12-25-2012, 19:35   #755
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LOL I was being sarcastic.

Boy, did I miss that one.
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Old 12-25-2012, 20:18   #756
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What caliber?

This is exactly the point. Caliber without a test of the shooter's ability to use the caliber is meaningless.

a posted news article about Navy Seal Team 6 states the members have to be able to double tap at 3x5 index card at 30 feet with 45acp.

In think that would do fine. Don't you see the important part of this is the ability to USE the caliber. I challenged three police officers I know to shoot at three IDPA targets at 12 yds while they were crossing to covered positions 10 yds to right. They had to keep moving and had to engage all three targets with two shots to center mass. The results.....oooooo not good.

Caliber did not matter at all. I mean at all. If you are a combat shooter you have been trained that moving is living. Shooting while moving is winning.

Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

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Old 12-25-2012, 20:27   #757
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Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

Rusty
Train them in which caliber?
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Old 12-25-2012, 20:32   #758
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Wrong.



TOTALLY wrong.




Partially wrong/right.



Wrong ne plus ultra.




This is a perfect example of someone totally regurgitating BS they have read on the Internet and/or gunrags. Incredible. Just a major fail.

Sounds like someone should live in Egypt, when they are that close to De-Nile.

The 9mm is a good round, but it is not near the top stoppers. if the 357 Sig, 357 Mag, 40 SW and 45 ACP are the top stopping rounds. Lets not pretend the 9mm (9x19) is also. Then we will have 380 acp owners thinking the same thing, then 32 and 25 auto owners will follow.

You just can't have your cake and eat it too. the 9mm is great for quick follow up shots, less muzzle flash, holding more rounds etc etc, but lets not assume it equals the 357 40 45 or 10mm.

If shot placement is EVERYTHING, then why doesn't most state police agencies use the 9mm? I mean it holds more rounds, less recoil and muzzle flash etc ???
I wonder why they could be so dumb, I mean if the .45 ACP, 40 SW and 357 sig are just plain no better at all than a 9mm. why would they bother.
I guess they are just dumb hicks,

If the men from Mars come down from space and give as a death ray gun pistol, your 9mm is just as deadly, and we better accept it.

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Old 12-25-2012, 20:48   #759
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What caliber?

This is exactly the point. Caliber without a test of the shooter's ability to use the caliber is meaningless.

a posted news article about Navy Seal Team 6 states the members have to be able to double tap at 3x5 index card at 30 feet with 45acp.

In think that would do fine. Don't you see the important part of this is the ability to USE the caliber. I challenged three police officers I know to shoot at three IDPA targets at 12 yds while they were crossing to covered positions 10 yds to right. They had to keep moving and had to engage all three targets with two shots to center mass. The results.....oooooo not good.

Caliber did not matter at all. I mean at all. If you are a combat shooter you have been trained that moving is living. Shooting while moving is winning.

Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

Rusty
First off, caliber effectiveness on paper does not matter. Caliber and particular loading in the real world does. And, I'm not arguing against being able to use any given, respectable, service caliber. Using it and what it does on target, a real target, are to different things. You first have to do your part, then the round has to do it's part. I'm just gonna wait til you're sober to continue this debacle. Cheers.
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Old 12-25-2012, 21:01   #760
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LOL...I don't drink, nor take drugs...this is as good as it gets. I do like your posts though. Rather circular

Give a 9mm. When they are competent at these drills come back and see me


One combat pistol drill is the El Presidente drill, developed by Jeff Cooper in the 1970s and published in the January/February 1979 issue of American Handgunner magazine.[5] This is used as a benchmark to gauge a shooter's skills, as it tests the draw and reload, and requires good transitions and follow-through.[6] The El Presidente drill is set up as follows:
Three silhouette targets are placed 1 meter apart in a line 10 meters from the shooter
The shooter starts with six rounds in a holstered handgun, and a spare magazine or speedloader with another six rounds
The shooter begins facing directly away from the targets, often with hands clasped in front or over the head.
Upon the starting signal, the shooter turns and draws, fires two shots at each target, reloads, then fires two more shots at each target.
Scoring varies; the simplest method uses hit/miss scoring, with a time penalty (often 10 seconds) for each miss. El Presidentes scored under the IPSC Comstock system take the total number of points on the targets (possible 60 points) and divide that by the time taken to complete the drill. This generates a number called "hit factor" which is a numerical representation of how many points the shooter placed on target per second during the drill. Example: shooting 55 points in 5.5 seconds would give the shooter a 10.0 hit factor. Originally a time of 10 seconds with a stock handgun, and all the points on target, was considered good. Today shooters using modern IPSC raceguns with muzzle brakes and red dot sights are close to breaking the three second barrier, and even shooters using production guns with no muzzle brakes or optical sights routinely break the five second mark.[6]
[edit]The Dozier Drill
This drill was invented by Jeff Cooper after the kidnap of Brigadier General James L. Dozier by Italian Red Brigade terrorists. The terrorists had entered General Dozier's apartment by posing as plumbers. As many as eight completed the gang and four or perhaps five entered the apartment. One of the terrorists removed a submachinegun from his bag of tools while another terrorist read a political statement to General Dozier. At that time, US military personnel were prohibited by Italian law from carrying firearms within their areas of accommodation, which were within the local community and not on US bases. General Dozier was unarmed and unable to defend himself. In response to this incident, Jeff Cooper designed the "Dozier drill".[7]
The range is set with five metal silhouette targets which are hinged at their base (called 'Pepper Poppers') so as to fall backwards when struck. A second participant stands well to one side and is tasked with retrieving a pistol and a magazine from a toolbag, which he must assemble and ready for action. This action mimics the terrorist who retrieved his submachine gun from his toolbag and provides a datum against which the shooter must compare his performance. On the signal, the shooter must draw his pistol and engage the five targets, representing the five terrorists, before the participant representing the terrorist retrieves his pistol and readies it for use.[7]
[edit]Malfunction clearing drills
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Old 12-25-2012, 21:23   #761
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Sounds like someone should live in Egypt, when they are that close to De-Nile...

Then that fella they had to shoot at least five times a couple of years back in El Paso with a .357 SIG was my imagination? You won't find that on the Internet.

The .357 SIG works better on auto body & glass penetration, which was the main reason the TX DPS selected it. It's not a death ray by any means. Any difference between it and 9mm 115 gr. +p+ on people is negligible at best and difficult to quantify. No bad guy will be able to differentiate 10 more gr. of lead in his body. The .357 SIG, while a fantastic handgun round, does not have mythical powers.

Anyone expecting any handgun round to be a bonafide fight stopper is inevitably going to be disappointed in the Real World.
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Old 12-25-2012, 21:34   #762
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Ah, Tiro Fijo - I agree with that. If you can agree that the skill and presents of mind of the shooter is at least as important as the caliber, I think we are on the same side

I think skill counts

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Old 12-25-2012, 21:49   #763
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You seem to be really angry about BPW, like someone pissed in your Fackler-o's or something.

Anyway, I'll be honest I don't really have any more simple way of discussing this with you and I don't think you will grasp the concept either way.

Here, try this...can you understand that this argument is not "You can only have BPW or FBI protocol." < Can ya get that right there, homie? If so, let me know and we can move forward.
I'm not angry man, why should I be? We are just two dudes on the internet talking about what happens when people get shot. On my side, I have almost every law enforcement agency in the country, and on your side you have Courtney. Why should I be pissed about anything?
I am perfectly willing to have a conversation about BPW with you. As I said before, I understand that weird **** happens when people get shot; I think that how you explain that is what sets you and me apart. What is bigger than that however is the fact that you and I can argue until we are blue in the face, but the reality of it is, is that BPW is not something that can be recreated in a lab setting. That is what law enforcement agencies are looking for. Is that right or wrong? I can't tell you this. As I have said numerous times before, I am a former cop; cops are for the most part suspicious of everything, (especially new stuff) they get paid to be that way. So unless you can show a bunch of cops on a piece of paper, or better yet on a shooting range how your theory is better than what is accepted currently you are just pissing in the wind my friend. Bottom line, I am not saying that the FBI testing is the end all be all; however it is the best thing that has been put forth for now. So on with the debate.
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Old 12-25-2012, 21:51   #764
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This may help:
I'm honestly not sure what you are getting at with this. No real news here, the .40 cal made a bigger hole.
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Old 12-25-2012, 21:54   #765
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Bottom line, thousands of cops put on their guns filled with bullets that are designed around the FBI protocols. These bullets work, and work well.
Once again, I say I don't have to prove anything



Filled with Bullets?, How about filled with ammunition and
that ammunition contains a bullet design that works well?. .Caliber Corner


Merry Christmas everyone. .Caliber Corner

Run along... Adults are talking.
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:03   #766
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Temporary cavity is another proven wound mechanism, stretching tissues past their elastic limit.
Yes with rifles, but not in handgun bullets that are considered standard calibers, 9mm, 40s&w, .357sig .45acp.
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:06   #767
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I know of no BPW advocate who has ever stated his/her ammo selection was based upon assumed BPW performance. In fact, Courtney himself listed as primary factors for self-defense rounds reliability, penetration, expansion, and accuracy before any consideration be given to BPW.

The stated or implied suggestion that anyone has --- or should --- select self-defense rounds on expected BPW performance is something that we ought to put to rest once and for all when the issue arises. To my knowledge nobody has ever advocated that criterion as the primary consideration when choosing duty/SD ammunition.
So then what are the criteria for selecting handgun rounds for the BPW crowd? I know it couldn't be the FBI tests; could it?
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:15   #768
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Those bullets work well in ballistic gel tests, but not real life. If we base our handgun performance on the FBI, then we are doomed, the Miami shootout proved beyond a doubt the pencel neck white color FBI high brass who choose what ammo the agents use are dumber than a box of rocks. They failed once and will again
Dude, just stop, I quit reading after this paragraph. Study some history and try again.
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:21   #769
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Yes with rifles, but not in handgun bullets that are considered standard calibers, 9mm, 40s&w, .357sig .45acp.
Yes, handgun bullets cause temporary cavity, which can stretch tissue beyond their elastic limit. It is not limited to rifles.
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:25   #770
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LOL.....so you think giving LEOs the right caliber would do more than training them to be combat shooters????

Drunk or sober I know that is wrong
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:31   #771
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Yes, handgun bullets cause temporary cavity, which can stretch tissue beyond their elastic limit. It is not limited to rifles.
Naturally, the big one's like the 44mag, and perhaps the .357mag, but not the standard personal defense cals. Even in the .357 mag, it is not substantial. With that would you think that it would be enough to cause the BPW effect? I don't...
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:53   #772
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I'm honestly not sure what you are getting at with this. No real news here, the .40 cal made a bigger hole.
It goes beyond the hole cause by the 10mm/.40 bullet. It is the expansion and temporary wound cavity caused by this expansion. The wax media does not resume its former position like ballistic gel or human tissue, thus illustrates the point.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:05   #773
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Naturally, the big one's like the 44mag, and perhaps the .357mag, but not the standard personal defense cals.
Temporary cavity is NOT limited to 44 mag and 357 mag. I urge you to look up what a temporary cavity is. All standard personal defense cals, as you put it, make temp cavs when the HP expands.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:54   #774
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Ah, Tiro Fijo - I agree with that. If you can agree that the skill and presents of mind of the shooter is at least as important as the caliber, I think we are on the same side

I think skill counts

Rusty
Rusty, I just can't figure out where the hell your mind is at.

Look, pretty much everyone that you will find in CC is on your side with this. All of the common names here (CC) know that training and mindset matter most. They will all probably tell you that they would fire until the threat has stopped...it's not determined by a preconceived number of rounds. You shoot until the BG does not want or is not able to play any more. Most will also tell (including myself) that skills and mindset are not at least as important as caliber but rather far more important.

It's called Caliber Corner for a reason. The overall discussion in this thread is regarding terminal ballistics. We're past the point of the shooter, the trigger has been pulled here already...
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:23   #775
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I'm not angry man, why should I be? We are just two dudes on the internet talking about what happens when people get shot. On my side, I have almost every law enforcement agency in the country, and on your side you have Courtney. Why should I be pissed about anything?
I am perfectly willing to have a conversation about BPW with you. As I said before, I understand that weird **** happens when people get shot; I think that how you explain that is what sets you and me apart. What is bigger than that however is the fact that you and I can argue until we are blue in the face, but the reality of it is, is that BPW is not something that can be recreated in a lab setting. That is what law enforcement agencies are looking for. Is that right or wrong? I can't tell you this. As I have said numerous times before, I am a former cop; cops are for the most part suspicious of everything, (especially new stuff) they get paid to be that way. So unless you can show a bunch of cops on a piece of paper, or better yet on a shooting range how your theory is better than what is accepted currently you are just pissing in the wind my friend. Bottom line, I am not saying that the FBI testing is the end all be all; however it is the best thing that has been put forth for now. So on with the debate.
Well, bro I have said it a few different ways so maybe I can clear it up this time by saying it again...but I'll do that after I quote a different reply you have made. BPW can be tested in a lab. The pressure wave itself is the easy part. The hard part is deciding what role it plays when we talk incapacitation...
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