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Old 01-20-2010, 21:37   #51
glock20c10mm
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
For those who handload, the 9mm/125gr GD offers much better performance than the 124gr, plus the shallow cavity design is less likely to clog.

Bob
I guess there's an exception to every rule. From the standpoint you're always preaching about any given bullet's designed velocity window. Do you think a 155gr XTP in the 10mm load would stand up better to hard barrier penetration over the Gold Dot design?

Did you chrono the handloaded 155gr 10mm load you spoke of? If so what was the velocity? 4.6" or 6.0" barrel?
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Old 01-21-2010, 14:03   #52
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Old 01-21-2010, 17:30   #53
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Look the 357 sig is not an unbelievable man stopper. I carry it and it is an effective SD cartridge. I feel no special reason to promote it and others should not rush to marginalize or condem it. This is caliber corner and this stuff is fun and although I particularly like the 357 sig., I think I would still be OK with my G23 or XD45 and my ability to place a shot under tremendous pressure will more dictate the outcome. However, although I have a G19, it is hard to warm up to the 9mm as a carry cartridge. Most agencies (local and state) went from the 9mm to the 40 S&W for a reason. Also, if I have to count on the 15th and 16th round, it will be a pretty bad day.
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Old 01-22-2010, 23:04   #54
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
I guess there's an exception to every rule. From the standpoint you're always preaching about any given bullet's designed velocity window. Do you think a 155gr XTP in the 10mm load would stand up better to hard barrier penetration over the Gold Dot design?

Did you chrono the handloaded 155gr 10mm load you spoke of? If so what was the velocity? 4.6" or 6.0" barrel?
Check your Hornady manual for their XTP design velocities.

The 155gr Gold Dot was running in the mid 1300s, here's some load data Mike McNett posted on the 10mm reloading page;

Quote:
85F 5000ft CCI 350 primers Starline brass AA 7 powder 1.255" OAL:

G29:
135gr 13.5gr - 1310fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1263fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1232fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1145fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1092fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 975fps

G20:
135gr 13.5gr - 1409fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1356fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1291fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1189fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1141fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 1027fps

6"KKM:
135gr 13.5gr - 1557fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1462fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1370fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1266fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1205fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 1062fps
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AA #7 is a nice powder to work with, but I really like what I see with the Longshot numbers, apparently McNett does too;

Quote:
Here is some info from my work with Longshot. Always start 1.0gr lower and work up in .2gr increments until you see pressure signs. (Waters' method):
Starline Brass, CCI 350 primers, 1.26" OAL. 10 shot avg. G20 85F and 5000ft elevation.

135gr Nosler 13.2gr LS - 1542fps
165 GSHP 10.4gr LS - 1356fps
180 GSHP 9.6gr LS - 1294fps
200 XTP 8.2gr LS - 1172fps

These are loads that I have worked up to and are under 37,500psi when I had them tested. I hope this helps!
-Mike
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:48   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
Check your Hornady manual for their XTP design velocities.

The 155gr Gold Dot was running in the mid 1300s, here's some load data Mike McNett posted on the 10mm reloading page;



AA #7 is a nice powder to work with, but I really like what I see with the Longshot numbers, apparently McNett does too;



Bob
My Hornady manual says up to 1300fps for the 155gr XTPs. Doesn't mean we can't experiment at ~1400fps though. Whatever reasons Hornady has for recommending an upper limit of 1300fps may not mean I wouldn't be just as happy with their overall performance at ~1400fps. Maybe I would,maybe I wouldn't. Only some fair testing would tell.

Also, I agree. With the 10mm, Longshot, with virtually any bullet weight, appears to be argueably as good or better than most or any others powders out there. I have lots of load data for the 10mm.


Thanks Bob,
Craig
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Old 01-23-2010, 16:45   #56
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
My Hornady manual says up to 1300fps for the 155gr XTPs. Doesn't mean we can't experiment at ~1400fps though. Whatever reasons Hornady has for recommending an upper limit of 1300fps may not mean I wouldn't be just as happy with their overall performance at ~1400fps. Maybe I would,maybe I wouldn't. Only some fair testing would tell.

Also, I agree. With the 10mm, Longshot, with virtually any bullet weight, appears to be argueably as good or better than most or any others powders out there. I have lots of load data for the 10mm.


Thanks Bob,
Craig
A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
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Old 01-23-2010, 17:35   #57
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
I may be misinterpeting what you wrote, but for the record, I don't actually know if it is or not (the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.).

What I do know is that the 180gr and 200gr XTPs in DT ammo work great (they are rated by Horandy for up to 1450fps and 1200fps respectively) at +.75" expansion into various forms of media. That said, I just wonder if they may have under rated the 155gr XTP a bit.

I do find it curious as to why they rated the 180gr for up to 1450fps! Maybe for good hunting performance from 6" accessory barrels with hot loads? Maybe so they still perform well from 10" barreled TCs? Maybe so they still perform well from carbine length barrels? That's all I can figure. Be interesting to know for sure though. Heck, it could be a misprint in the manual for all I know.

Anyway, if you ever do choose to soup up some 10mm 155gr XTPs, maybe even from the 6" barrel, definately let us know the outcome.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 01-23-2010, 18:56   #58
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Old 01-23-2010, 21:57   #59
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You're always welcome to share your .357SIG field experiences/testing heads-up vs the above 10mm combinations.

Bob
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Old 01-23-2010, 22:34   #60
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Just yanking your chain. I love the 10mm too and have a G29 and 3 1911's calibered in 10mm. However, I rarely carry the G29 in that the 357 sig fits into a smaller platform and God cursed me with small hands.
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Old 01-23-2010, 23:32   #61
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Just yanking your chain. I love the 10mm too and have a G29 and 3 1911's calibered in 10mm. However, I rarely carry the G29 in that the 357 sig fits into a smaller platform and God cursed me with small hands.
I have a G20 and G20 SF, in hindsight, I think the 10mm/1911 combination would be a better carry. I'd be interested in feedback with your 10mm/1911s vs the .357SIG. If you handload, try the 1911/.38Super; it'll also load with .357mag bullets and has the same COAL as 10mm. I'm also testing 155gr XTPs in a 1911/.400 Corbon set-up; seems to be a lot more accurate than either of my Glock 10mms.

When I get enough water bottles, I want to retest the 125gr GD upper 1400s (N105) vs 155gr GD (if any are left) at 1400s + ??? Longshot.

My money is on the 125gr GD, how about you?

Bob
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:01   #62
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The 10mm loads from Double Tap beat the 357 sig and I generally carry the 165 gr. Golden Sabers which perform really well on water jugs. My standard hand load is a180 gr. Seirra HP with 11. something of AA7. I would have to go and look up the exact amount, but I get 1200 fps out of the 1911 and it is a very accurate load.

I have trouble carrying a full size 1911 and I had the grip reduced on the G29 it is not bad, but I shoot faster with the G32 in 357 sig. I found that CorBon 125 JHP leaves my G32 at 1430fps and has devestating effects and I generally carry that. It is better than my handloads with Power Pistol at 1450 and 125 GD's.

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Old 01-24-2010, 08:48   #63
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A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
The 155grn GD can be pretty explosive, aswell... from a 6' bbl!
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:38   #64
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
I'm also testing 155gr XTPs in a 1911/.400 Corbon set-up; seems to be a lot more accurate than either of my Glock 10mms.

When I get enough water bottles, I want to retest the 125gr GD upper 1400s (N105) vs 155gr GD (if any are left) at 1400s + ??? Longshot.

My money is on the 125gr GD, how about you?

Bob
Can't wait to find out if the 155gr XTP will hold up to the velocity or not. And overall, it will be a great comparison!


Craig
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Old 01-24-2010, 21:54   #65
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The 155grn GD can be pretty explosive, aswell... from a 6' bbl!
Depending on powder, the 6" KKM barrel typically generates about 90fps over the 4.6" barrel; I'll test both lengths.

Bob
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Old 01-25-2010, 21:15   #66
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Depending on powder, the 6" KKM barrel typically generates about 90fps over the 4.6" barrel; I'll test both lengths.

Bob
Sweet!

If it works out, some in various forums have mentioned Longshot as producing very low levels of flash. Whenever you get around to it, could you also pop off a few rounds at night and give us your thoughts on that?


Craig
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Old 01-26-2010, 20:39   #67
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
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Old 01-26-2010, 21:55   #68
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But really, a Corvette is simply a fast Chevett, right?
Not really....have you seen a chevett trying to turn or brake from 160 mph ?

LOL...no but really I see your point.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:24   #69
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
That is why the Air Marshalls are using it. It is not as simple as that. It is a very effective cartridge and if you look around there are good choices in bullets and there will be more. As one who has used the cartridge for over 12 years, I cannot understand why people want to marginalize this round.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:30   #70
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LOL...no but really I see your point.
Since he was responding to me, I do not see his point. But I took it as humor. The response was to the statement that a 357 sig is just a fast 9mm. But truly that is just like saying a 357 magnum is just a fast 38 special. A true statement but the qualifier "just" fails to appreciate the importance in higher velocity.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:38   #71
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law enforcement likes 357sig, because it is a good car cutter. simple as that. very little choice in bullets.
There are over 130 choices for .357sig ammo. Law enforcement likes .357sig because it has a great track record in real life shootings. Do your homework:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=.357+sig+real+life+shootings
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:28   #72
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I'm a fan of 357sig & also own/carry/shoot the other main semi auto duty calibers: (9, 40, 45). To me, it's a simple matter of choosing the right tool for the right job. If barrier penetration is a key requirement, like BGs shooting/hiding behind their vehicles on a traffic stop, then 357sig is a real winner. If you're working or fighting for your life in a CQB environment, it's hard to argue against calibers w/a larger sectional density. If you work for an agency w/LOTs of Officers & high training & supply costs, like NYPD, the benefits of 9mm are a no brainer.

Now, a valid 357sig question I often hear is, "If it's sooo good against barriers, then why would the Fed Air Marshalls choose this caliber? Won't it go straight thru the BG & the airplane as well?" Without getting into all the details as to how I know, the answer is the FAMs we're looking for a round that could produce, dare I say it, instant incapacitation, & 357sig did pretty well in the reporting they reviewed. Like was said before, there's something to that extra velocity that at this time we can't measure or quantify, but it works. Again, you need the right tool for the right job. Know what your job is & pick the right tool. And please keep in mind that your job and mine may be different, too.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:40   #73
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To me, it's a simple matter of choosing the right tool for the right job. If barrier penetration is a key requirement, like BGs shooting/hiding behind their vehicles on a traffic stop, then 357sig is a real winner.
Or if you are a private citisen that has to fire throug your own car door or windshield as you sit in your own car and are approached by the BG.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:35   #74
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that, too, but to play devils advocate, that scenario is more about tactics than caliber.
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Old 01-27-2010, 19:23   #75
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Without getting into all the details as to how I know, the answer is the FAMs we're looking for a round that could produce, dare I say it, instant incapacitation, & 357sig did pretty well in the reporting they reviewed. Like was said before, there's something to that extra velocity that at this time we can't measure or quantify, but it works.
Exactly the kind of insight I like to hear about!

Can you elaborate any further at all? Even a tidbit? Site a nonclassified source? Anything?


Craig
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