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Old 01-15-2010, 23:02   #26
remat
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I read a report years ago from Henrico County, VA Sheriffs that basically said that they were evaluating it because of its similiarity to 357 magnum 125gr.

Their evaluation was that while it did not duplicate the loading exactly ballistically, the end results were the same and the guns were lighter, less recoil, and higher capacity.

The biggest highlight of the review was that the 357Sig/125 loading performed the best when confronted with car windshields as an intermediate barrier. For trivia 40/155 did second best. Wish I could remember what ammo they were using...

They adopted it.
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Old 01-16-2010, 00:58   #27
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Can you be more specific where you say; "The velocity issues do matter." ???
Yes, the 9mm Ranger T 127gr +p+ leaves my G19 at 1,210 fps, the 125gr. Cor-Bon 357 Sig JHP leaves my G32 at 1,430. The effect on any media I have shot, including animals, has been much more devastating with the 357sig than the 9mm. If velocity did not matter why would people be shooting 9mm +p instead of just 9mm.

The 357 sig is more than a novelty. It was 12 years ago when I first got a gun chambered for it. I doubt it will take over the 40 anytime soon, but unless you own a 9mm, a 357 sig, a 40 and a 45 as I do, I do not know how you can make a comparison. I shoot probably 3,000 handgun rounds a year in all of calibers combined, and I carry the 357 sig. Not that I would feel undergunned with my G19, G23 or XD45, but I have seen the effectiveness of the 357 sig on some animals, water jugs and gelatin.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:03   #28
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What is the "Sky Marshall", round? For some reason I think it is .357sig, but it might be 9mm. If it is .357sig that would account for an increase in .357sig popularity.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:20   #29
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What is the "Sky Marshall", round?
357 Sig. I understand they have been getting different brands due to procurement issues lately, but they used to carry the slower 1,350fps 125gr Gold Dot for penetration issues. Not for the plane body, but rather for concern for the passenger body behind the BG.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:40   #30
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To be clear, did anybody mention not being able to get a needed quantity, OR, they had no issue getting any quantity and it was only in relation to cost?
I was told they weren't able to get enough .357SIG after adopting the caliber and had to make do with using conversion barrels for .40 S&W for training. (Not an ideal solution, or one necessarily recommended by that gun company for dedicated LE duty weapons.)

It seems the cost of the .357SIG ammunition was a separate (but not inconsequential) issue which was of later concern when it became more easily available.

Of course, availability can be influenced by a number of things, as can procurement (vendor selection/bid).
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:11   #31
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Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:59   #32
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Originally Posted by .45Super-Man View Post
Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
Well said!
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Old 01-16-2010, 13:56   #33
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Yes, the 9mm Ranger T 127gr +p+ leaves my G19 at 1,210 fps, the 125gr. Cor-Bon 357 Sig JHP leaves my G32 at 1,430. The effect on any media I have shot, including animals, has been much more devastating with the 357sig than the 9mm. If velocity did not matter why would people be shooting 9mm +p instead of just 9mm.

The 357 sig is more than a novelty. It was 12 years ago when I first got a gun chambered for it. I doubt it will take over the 40 anytime soon, but unless you own a 9mm, a 357 sig, a 40 and a 45 as I do, I do not know how you can make a comparison. I shoot probably 3,000 handgun rounds a year in all of calibers combined, and I carry the 357 sig. Not that I would feel undergunned with my G19, G23 or XD45, but I have seen the effectiveness of the 357 sig on some animals, water jugs and gelatin.
Thanks for clarifying.

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Old 01-16-2010, 14:02   #34
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Originally Posted by .45Super-Man View Post
Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 01-16-2010, 14:05   #35
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I am far from educated on this manner, but I have taken a special interest in ballistics and I have researched and reviewed and analyzed a lot of data on gelatin, penetration, expansion, energy, etc and how the different calibers stack up and every time I do this the rank seems to be 10mm, 45acp/357sig (tie), 40sw, 9mm. Not too mention that it also seems to have a more controllable recoil than the 40sw.

I too agree that the 357 sig is an awesome round!
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Old 01-16-2010, 17:41   #36
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Not sure on your original question(s), but I can't find ammo at Wally World for .357 Sig anywhere around here. They get in 9 and .40 in all the time.
My Walmart has 125 grain .357 SIG and Federal FMJ 180 grain .40 S&W (@$13.97/50) on the shelf right now. I bought their last 6 boxes of $15.97 Federal FMJ .45 ACP.

...and I also carry one of two German .357 SIG pistols when not carrying a .45ACP.
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Old 01-16-2010, 17:46   #37
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The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark.
Bro, do you know how many times i've said this almost... if not... the EXACT same way?!!
Man, it's nice to hear someone else say that! You neeed to start posting more, brotha.
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Old 01-16-2010, 17:59   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
If the 125gr 357 Mag at 1450 is a legendary performer, imagine it at 1725! Good penetration, not too much, not too little and MASSIVE energy (for a pistol cartridge)
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Old 01-16-2010, 18:33   #39
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If the 125gr 357 Mag at 1450 is a legendary performer, imagine it at 1725! Good penetration, not too much, not too little and MASSIVE energy (for a pistol cartridge)
Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
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Old 01-16-2010, 19:07   #40
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Fastbolt, your contribution to this forum, and others that I know of, measurably raise the level of thoughtfulness and discourse. You are the kind of guy I like go shooting with. Take care,

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Old 01-16-2010, 19:39   #41
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Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
Keep in mind that these ballistics are from a 6"bbl for the 9x25. DT 10mm 135 grain has posted 955ft.lbs from a 6". The advantage is having a pistol with carbine performance, roughly that of a 14.5" 5.56.
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Old 01-16-2010, 22:20   #42
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Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
9x25mm certainly puts up some nice numbers; however, bullet design and construction can overcome those very hign energy numbers.

Here's a direct 4 layer denim comparison with the 9x25mm; from Michael Shovel at Corbon, only 466 ft-lbs from their DPX ammo line!

Quote:
This was using properly prepared 10% ballistic gelatin with a 4 layer denim barrier.

The 44 Special ended up with

velocity - 1024 fps
recovered diameter - .89"
penetration - 17.5"
recovered wt - 200 gr
Sectional density of the 200gr DPX bullet is less than the 147gr GD, which is well past its velocity design parameters.

Bob
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:07   #43
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Out West, you caught me by surprise. Thanks. I'd enjoy that if the opportunity ever came about ... as long as you didn't mind me bringing along a cigar or two.

As far as the main thread topic goes ...

I've always respected the .357 Magnum revolver cartridge for its versatility as a medium-bore revolver cartridge, especially for a couple of loads I used to favor when I was a handloader, one of which was a stoutly loaded 140gr JHP (I used the CCI JHP bullet).

I had to settle for 158gr JHP, 125gr JHP and 145gr STHP loads for duty ammo when I later got into LE work. The 140gr JHP factory loads were harder to find.

I remember attending a couple of wound ballistics seminars taught by a former DoD investigator who had the personal opinion (albeit based on his case experience investigating shootings in special circumstances) that if the .357 Magnum revolver had remained in LE service a while longer that the 140gr JHP, especially the 140gr SJHP, would probably have eventually been recognized to basically be a "better 125gr JHP". Maybe so. Dunno. I liked the capabilities of the middle weight Magnum load, though.

It's probably accurate to say that my interest in the .357 Magnum limits any interest I might have had in the .357SIG. I'd rather buy another .357 Magnum revolver than a pistol in .357SIG, but that's also probably because I already have so many excellent CCW-capable pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45 ...
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Old 01-17-2010, 14:10   #44
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Thanks.

I understand (and agree) what you're saying about the possibility of the "it's just a handgun" being somewhat of an over-generalization, or simplification. I'd offer that it depends on the situational context, though.

Personally, I don't use it without thought.

I often use the generalization when I hear some younger folks splitting hairs and trying to argue nebulous shades-of-gray merits of one major caliber in a short-barreled service pistol over another ... after having just qualified them, or having observed another instructor having qualified them, and assessing their relative skills and abilities.

I often suspect that some of these young folks (for the most part, but obviously not exclusively) are sometimes mentally substituting - either intentionally or unintentionally - caliber or bullet design in hopes of making up for their abilities and skills. Something along the lines of it being faster and easier to "buy" a perceived potential advantage than investing the time and effort in a developing a physical/mental one (and maintaining it).

Yes, no and maybe. Depends.

There's arguably a primacy in assigning priorities to all the various mental (knowledge/mindset), physical (strength/endurance), equipment (weapons, holsters, ammunition) and skills/abilities involved in using a successfully and effectively using a handgun as a defensive weapon when both lawful and appropriate. The trick is to figure out the most critical priorities and influential factors which may come into play in any given set of circumstances or situation.

I like having access to the better designed, more modern hollowpoint loads when possible, myself, but I don't place an emphasis on doing so to the extent that I neglect developing and maintaining skills (or maintaining a given handgun properly).

Some folks often give the impression that they seem to think a certain caliber is going to get them safely past the 'make or break' point, and others seem to like to think of make/model handgun or bullet design factors in much the same way. Dunno.

The "Talisman Effect", perhaps?

I use the "it's just a handgun" comment to see if it jars their thinking, or prompts them to reconsider their assessment of potential priorities, as well as reconsider the relative importance of being able to use whatever handgun they have at their disposal in the first place.

I'd rather go into Harm's Way with an experienced, if grizzled and worn, veteran who can decisively, accurately & effectively employ his well-worn S&W Model 10 than some young hot-shot with his cutting edge gear and state-of-the-art ammunition.

Confidence in equipment is fine and laudable, but I'd offer that it shouldn't be unreasonably elevated above the relative importance of the knowledge, skills, abilities, experience and mindset of the equipment user.

Of course, given the choice between facing a given situation armed just with a handgun, instead of a shotgun or patrol rifle?

In the greater scheme of everything that may be encountered or the specific situations which may occur ... it's still just a handgun. It's still just a piece of equipment. Maybe some nuance or subtle quality of the individual piece of equipment (or ammunition) may be just enough to allow the user to prevail, or maybe the 'user qualities' may overcome any inherent superiority of design or performance capability of the equipment.

Just depends how many eggs and how many baskets someone wants to juggle when it comes down to the potential for serious consequences, maybe.

I agree with the M4 configured with the shortest barrel options essentially being 2-handed machine pistols of arguably lesser advantage regarding ballistic capability (as well as the disadvantage of the increased muzzle blast and noise) ... depending on ammunition selection, of course ... but there's always going to be the younger folks who go for the appearance/cool factor.

You know, the 'team leader gets the coolest carbine' sort of thing? Hey, maybe they'll grow out of it, or reconsider the totality of their experience and 'working wisdom' after surviving some experience or other ... and when it comes right down to it, the configurations wouldn't be made if they didn't sell for whatever reason or weren't being requested.

Doesn't mean I'd want one instead of a good pistol, though, either.

Excellent post!


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Old 01-17-2010, 14:31   #45
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357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Nope. Other than internet rumor, I heard of many agencies switching to .357sig. Not a bad round, but not exactly gaining ground versus .40 either.
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Old 01-17-2010, 14:37   #46
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Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
Comparing the 9x25 to the 10mm in terms of terminal ballistics, runs parallel to the .357SIG vs. 40S&W debate. In both cases you're trading a bit of mass and frontal area for energy. For more specific/tactical applications, the 9x25 may well have an edge over the 10mm with the very top loads and comparable weight to caliber ratio for both calibers. If I carried a 10mm Glock, I'd be very tempted by the 9x25 for carry IF the bullets were designed to perform at those elevated velocities. Anotherwards, 10mm for home defense where the chances of having to penetrate secondary obstacles were basically a non-issue and you want that extra frontal area/mass working for you with an unobstructed target at VERY close quarters. When you're "out in the world" there are more possible variables that could have an effect on the outcome such as increased distances, windshield/barrier penetration,etc. and THERE is where I'd want the 9x25 on my side "just in case". So a drop in barrel and mag change is all you'd need as you head out the door.
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Old 01-19-2010, 14:30   #47
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.11
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Old 01-19-2010, 15:17   #48
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I'm by no means a ballistics expert, and my favorite autopistol caliber is still the 9mm. However, with the 357 sig's speed, i can see it possibly penetrating better with hollow points, as compared to a regular 9mm hp. It may also offer a bit of extre penetration through side shots, arm bones, and other barriers. Then there is probably also, some extra hydrostatick shock caused by 357 sig wounds. It may or may not cause permanent damage, but i'm sure the target is going to feel it either way.
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Old 01-19-2010, 16:28   #49
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I think reading those articles is very interesting. So as far as state troopers are concerned 19%+ are currently using the 357 Sig and amoung that group it is second only to the 40 S&W. That sounds far from a novelty round as some have implied.
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Old 01-20-2010, 00:44   #50
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Since many law enforcement agencies that issue the .357SIG, Speer's bonded 125gr Gold Dot advertised at 1350fps is a popular choice for carry ammo.

The 125gr GD has a shallow cavity (high velocity) design, the 147gr GD is a deep cavity design, as is the 10mm/155gr GD. Now contrast this with the shallow cavity .357mag/158gr GD and the old tech Remington 158gr SJHP.

Caliber Corner

Comparing sectional density match ups pits the .357SIG/125gr Gold Dot vs the 10mm/155gr GD. Using steel barriers in front of one gallon water bottles the handloaded 125gr GD (1430fps + in .38Super) out penetrated and expanded wider than the handloaded 10mm/155gr GD. If Speer offered a shallow cavity 155gr for 10mm velocities it would result in better performance.

The best performing steel barrier/water bottle test turned out to be the .357mag/140gr SJHP running in the low 1500s, and that includes the .357mag/158gr GD.

Loading the 9mm with the 125gr Gold Dot (knocking on 1300fps) instead of the 124gr Gold Dot and penetration/expansion is on par with the 10mm/155gr GD.

Caliber Corner

124gr lower right.

l-r 9mm/125gr GD, 38Super/125gr GD, 357mag/125gr GD (1600s)

So, what round went heads up with the 125gr GD/1430fps (faster than Speer's factory one-shot-stopper MV)???

Caliber Corner

.45auto/230gr Golden Saber/960fps. The .45auto still remains a very popular carry for high risk law enforcement teams/units, including FBI SWAT/HRT et al.

Notice the terrible recoil of the .357mag/125gr GD/1600s/750fpe;

Caliber Corner

For those who handload, the 9mm/125gr GD offers much better performance than the 124gr, plus the shallow cavity design is less likely to clog.

Bob
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