[dkf]

I understand why the "standard" if you will is in place but if you look at barrier penetration tests such as sheetrock, metal, plywood and clothing the penetration into the soft medium does not change much.

That is usually because when the HP cavity is deformed and/or plugged it can limit or eliminate expansion on sheetrock and sheetmetal. Cloth or denim usually just hinders expansion somewhat in most good JHP bullet designs thus the penetration is marginally deeper and the expansion marginally smaller. Bone tends to not have that effect, it usually slows down the bullet but allows some expansion, large hard bones can stop the bullet in its tracks and rip it apart. The FBI put that 12" figure there for a reason and I like to not go under it if at all possible. It doesn't matter to some however not hitting the vitals due to lack of penetration can cost you your ass and an early dirt nap. I'll take a well rounded bullet design, we have those options available so why not.

[NG VI]

slower moving projectiles (40SW and 45ACP) on thin targets are not expanding well and passing through the target.

Since when? .40 has never had a history of poor expansion, the cartridge was designed after ammunition companies started taking terminal performance seriously and started designing bullets to work with the parameters they operate under, instead of the old-school make a fragile JHP and drive it as fast as you can style of JHP development.

[NG VI]

I'll take a well rounded bullet design, we have those options available so why not.

DKF I agree completely, I pick the bullets I choose to promote because they have incorporated very hard lessons that took many decades to learn. Why not.

We know expanding bullets make people stop fighting faster, even if we can't always perfectly describe the mechanisms at play.

We know a better designed bullet is more consistent and will behave in a fairly identical fashion after passing through any reasonable object between it and the person it is supposed to be stopping.

We know penetration is a good thing, to a point, and that beyond that point any momentum the bullet retains is definitely a bad thing, energy-wise because it could have been spent inside the target and not flying through the air directly behind him, and prudence-wise because you don't want to send bullets flying through populated areas if you can ever avoid it.

We know a well-muscled arm can be the difference between a perfect shot and a wasted one.

We know that a bullet that expands well but comes apart may not be able to re-enter the body after going through a thick arm, and that any handgun bullet is reasonably likely to be stopped cold by most of our heaviest bones, under some circumstances.

We know we can most easily control depth of penetration by controlling expansion and bullet mass. If we have a heavier bullet, we can get away with significantly more expansion without cutting into the desirable/necessary penetration depths.

We have numerous bullets available that offer very reasonable penetration and lots of expansion, and I can't think of a single reason not to use one of those.

They aren't even the most expensive defense cartridges, not by a long shot.

They're just the name-brand ones. You can buy a Maserati that won't really satisfy more than the basic requirements of a commuter car, or you can spend $20-30K on a car built for the purpose you'll actually be using it for. Bullets are the same way.

Your options are far deeper than JHP or FMJ, and if you're paying a dollar a round for your defense ammunition, you picked the wrong one.

[NG VI]

if you're paying a dollar a round for your defense ammunition, you picked the wrong one.

No apologies to Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or any other boutique company. They've got their niche market, but sober self defense and duty carry (the same exact thing, only while wearing a uniform) isn't their bailiwick.

[unit1069]

Originally Posted by NG VI

... and if you're paying a dollar a round for your defense ammunition, you picked the wrong one.

And I can't agree more, given that with online ammo dealers the most street proven rounds like Gold Dot, HST, Federal +P+, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester, etc ... are considerably less than a dollar per round.

[NG VI]

A lot of people assume you mean whatever's most expensive when you say 'best'.

Or hottest loaded. Or flashiest advertised.

[Adamz04]

Originally Posted by spcwes

Well in my mind over penetration is a waste of bullet and bullet power. I would not mind having a round that penetrated 8-10" Reason? Well im 6'2" and weight about 240lbs, pretty solid fella and I can use a ruler and show that 12" will actually pass through places of my upper torso and will also get deep enough for vitals from any point of impact even on the thickest part of my shoulder.

I guess its not an issue if you get full expansion of the round but some of the slower moving projectiles (40SW and 45ACP) on thin targets are not expanding well and passing through the target. 10-12" with full expansion and the desired weight retention (which you will get with a Gold Dot) would be perfect in my opinion, maybe the 9mm loaded hot in a 357sig is the answer.

I understand your reasoning here with the ruler and torso because ive done the same thing. I sometimes try to convince myself that my 380 is enough with that reasoning.

I would tend to disagree with 40 and 45 not expanding well. 45 is a very reliable expander even at lower speeds. A standard pressure 230gr 45 hst moving under 900 fps will expand to near an inch. 45s are designed to perform at lower speeds.
I dont consider 40, in most cases, to be a slow round. I would lean more in the other direction. A 165gr load around 1100fps +/- is pretty darn good. All 40 loads ive tested were all good expanders, except for winchester(story for another time and place), and if i were not invested in 357sig I would be shooting 40.

I would tend to agree with DKF that 12in. is a good benchmark to stay above.

[Tiro Fijo]

Fortunately, with Gold Dots we know that they work damn well in the Real World. Looking at sanctioned, obejective four layer denim/ calibrated gel tests for Gold Dots and correlating that to its known Street results we can make a very educated guess about how an unknown round will fare as well by its test results. The only thing we can't factor in is luck & the fickled finger of fate.

[Pepiot]

Thanks for posting

[cowboy1964]

180gr .40s and 230gr .45s work VERY well and do NOT over penetrate.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

[SDGlock23]

This isn't really relevant to anything, but Underwoods now has 135gr .40's doing 1500fps, right on the heels of the 10mm's 1600 fps.

[pizza]

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

This isn't really relevant to anything, but Underwoods now has 135gr .40's doing 1500fps, right on the heels of the 10mm's 1600 fps.

Sweet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Adamz04]

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

This isn't really relevant to anything, but Underwoods now has 135gr .40's doing 1500fps, right on the heels of the 10mm's 1600 fps.

I noticed that yesterday when I was on there site checking out some 380, which I wish they had a faster fmj in, and it intrigued me.
I've heard that glock 40s don't support higher pressures well. Is that true? I have no experience with glock 40s. That would certainly be a potent defensive load. On paper it looks better than their 357sig load. Now we need someone to test it.

[pizza]

Originally Posted by Adamz04

I noticed that yesterday when I was on there site checking out some 380, which I wish they had a faster fmj in, and it intrigued me.
I've heard that glock 40s don't support higher pressures well. Is that true? I have no experience with glock 40s. That would certainly be a potent defensive load. On paper it looks better than their 357sig load. Now we need someone to test it.

Is it really higher pressure though or just a lighter bullet getting it that fast? If it's just the lighter bullet then there shouldn't be an issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Adamz04]

Originally Posted by pizza

Is it really higher pressure though or just a lighter bullet getting it that fast? If it's just the lighter bullet then there shouldn't be an issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

You may be right, I don't know. Back in the day I had some corbon 135gr 40 and it was hot. I don't remember what the box said the velocity was, maybe 1350 +/- Pushing 135gr 150 fps faster than that would have to increase pressure right?

I just looked it up, it was 1325fps. So that would be an increase of 175fps. That is a lot.

I'm sorry but I'm laughing at your name and it's making it hard to be serious.