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Old 06-11-2013, 19:27   #151
Harley6133
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Old 06-11-2013, 19:42   #152
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Originally Posted by SeaDoc View Post
I have a new Benelli Nova 12 ga tactical SG and I keep hearing about buckshot rounds for HD. My kids' bedrooms are on the opposite side of the upstairs hallway and I've heard too many accounts of 00 and 000 pellets penetrating the BG, going through a wall or two and hitting an unintended target. Wouldn't large sized steel shot (e.g. BB) do just as well at HD distances and be safer? An added advantage is "Well you honor, I really wasn't trying to kill him. You see, I used smaller shot..." Thoughts?
IT's been hacked over many times in threads, but it seems that many agree that the smaller shot, yes even a bunch of them, lack the mass individually or as a group, to be reliable.

IMO many people fool themselves trying to get a great positive result with no potential drawbacks ("something for nothing")If it WON'T penetrate a couple layers of sheetrock I don't think I would trust it to do the job I need done.

BY THE WAY

where did you here that tall tale about 00 buck,

" penetrating the BG, going through a wall or two and hitting an unintended target."

I could understand one prevaricator telling it, but

" too many accounts"

????




Whatta crock.
.
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Old 06-11-2013, 21:06   #153
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OK, fair enough. Yes, this has been beaten pretty much to death over the years but it has been proven in ballistic testing that 00 and 000 WILL penetrate the BG and hit stuff behind him in a HD setting. Period. It will also penetrate walls inside a house. If you live in an apartment then the issue gets even more complicated. I guess us prevaricators will stick with #1 or #4 buck, or steel shot. You shoot someone at 10-15 feet or so and these will work great. 00 or 000 is ideal, otherwise.
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Old 06-11-2013, 22:24   #154
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OK, fair enough. Yes, this has been beaten pretty much to death over the years but it has been proven in ballistic testing that 00 and 000 WILL penetrate the BG and hit stuff behind him in a HD setting. Period. It will also penetrate walls inside a house. If you live in an apartment then the issue gets even more complicated. I guess us prevaricators will stick with #1 or #4 buck, or steel shot. You shoot someone at 10-15 feet or so and these will work great. 00 or 000 is ideal, otherwise.
We have a miscommunication here. A brush up on English might be in order.

"I've heard too many accounts of 00 and 000 pellets penetrating the BG, going through a wall or two and hitting an unintended target."


A comma is a substitute for the word "and" when used in a series of verbs it implies a continuous action. if one wishes to express a separate event the word "or" is the proper choice.

Sorry, had the word "or" been there, I would have agreed the potential exist and probably not bothered to post or would have suggested a smaller buck rather than bird shot.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:08   #155
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We have a miscommunication here. A brush up on English might be in order.

"I've heard too many accounts of 00 and 000 pellets penetrating the BG, going through a wall or two and hitting an unintended target."


A comma is a substitute for the word "and" when used in a series of verbs it implies a continuous action. if one wishes to express a separate event the word "or" is the proper choice.

Sorry, had the word "or" been there, I would have agreed the potential exist and probably not bothered to post or would have suggested a smaller buck rather than bird shot.
Roger that. My English is fine, BTW. I thought it was understood that I was just making a general point about 00 and 000 buck and their penetration issues wrt HD and wasn't concentrating much on semantics. My main goal was to get a sense of where other members of this forum fall on the "penetration vs. stopping power" spectrum. Having said that, I think we are more in agreement than I originally thought.

I will check with some USMC and range buddies but will probably end up sticking with small buck or large steel shot for in-house HD. A couple of light loads followed by heavier ones might be a good idea, too. Not sure.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:20   #156
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I like #1 buck and I also like the Winchester PDX1 Segmenting Slugs. Currently, my HD shotguns are loaded with the PDX1 Segmenting Slugs, with #1 buck readily available as backup.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:16   #157
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Originally Posted by SeaDoc View Post
...
will probably end up sticking with small buck or large steel shot for in-house HD.
...
Remember that steel is lighter and will penetrate less the then same size shot in lead.

And since is is bigger then the size lead shot that weights the same, it will penetrate less then that too.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:16   #158
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Remember that steel is lighter and will penetrate less the then same size shot in lead.

And since is is bigger then the size lead shot that weights the same, it will penetrate less then that too.
Good point - thanks. #4 buck sounds maybe like it might be the way to go.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:54   #159
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My 12 gauge pump is loaded with Winchester Low Recoil OOBuck. I believe it is an 8 pellet load.
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Old 06-12-2013, 18:10   #160
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As I said on another forum, it's ten paces to the front door and even less to the back door from where I'm sitting right now. Any Buck load from a 12, 20, or .410 ga. shotgun will work if an intruder enters this house. You pick the brand. tom.
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Old 06-12-2013, 18:35   #161
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Roger that. My English is fine, BTW. I thought it was understood that I was just making a general point about 00 and 000 buck and their penetration issues wrt HD and wasn't concentrating much on semantics. My main goal was to get a sense of where other members of this forum fall on the "penetration vs. stopping power" spectrum. Having said that, I think we are more in agreement than I originally thought.

I will check with some USMC and range buddies but will probably end up sticking with small buck or large steel shot for in-house HD. A couple of light loads followed by heavier ones might be a good idea, too. Not sure.
Welcome to this forum. You use whatever self defense load works for you. Convey your thoughts how you want and don't worry about internet "geniuses".

Questions are usually good, answers are hit or miss.
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Old 06-12-2013, 19:43   #162
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Roger that. My English is fine, BTW. I thought it was understood that I was just making a general point about 00 and 000 buck and their penetration issues wrt HD and wasn't concentrating much on semantics. My main goal was to get a sense of where other members of this forum fall on the "penetration vs. stopping power" spectrum. Having said that, I think we are more in agreement than I originally thought.

I will check with some USMC and range buddies but will probably end up sticking with small buck or large steel shot for in-house HD. A couple of light loads followed by heavier ones might be a good idea, too. Not sure.
It's all good. The info I put in post 149 mirrors my own experience with the Federal load and with a sub-two-inch pattern at 7 yards I don't worry about stray pellets a lot and complete misses would worry me the same with about anything due to Murphy's law.
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Old 06-12-2013, 21:30   #163
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Thank you gentlemen - I appreciate the comments. I just talked with a Marine infantry Major today who recommended non-lethal bean bags and the like for HD. Not sure I want a perp to be able to get right back up after I put him down but it is very useful perspective. #4 BS still seems to be the best at this point, IMHO, of course.
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Old 06-13-2013, 00:26   #164
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Thank you gentlemen - I appreciate the comments. I just talked with a Marine infantry Major today who recommended non-lethal bean bags and the like for HD. Not sure I want a perp to be able to get right back up after I put him down but it is very useful perspective. #4 BS still seems to be the best at this point, IMHO, of course.
NO.

Also, the term is less lethal. There's no such thing as non-lethal from a shotgun.

Stick to #4, #1 or 00 buck, preferably in a low recoil (tight patterning) load, unless running a semi-auto that is only reliable on full house loads. I am partial to #1 buck (it's what my 590 is stoked with) with slugs and bird (for the large 4-legged and fanged no-legged problems, respectively) on the stock, and 5 more of #1 on the side saddle.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:21   #165
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Also, the term is less lethal.
Was going to rant about how could something be less lethal since "lethal" is defined as "of an instrument of certain death."

But then I thought about lethality with regard to FMJ versus Hollowpoint rounds and referred back to this video:


For self defense, Hollowpoints do make a difference and indeed are more lethal and less likely to penetrate than FMJ, with the latter being better for the range.

Always back to Glock-related issues I guess.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:43   #166
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There's no such thing as non-lethal from a shotgun.
Yes, good catch - I came to the same conclusion after I made the post. It dawned on me later that a bean bag shot to the throat could very easily fracture the larnyx or crush the trachea which would prove to be fatal.
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Old 06-13-2013, 17:03   #167
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Yes, good catch - I came to the same conclusion after I made the post. It dawned on me later that a bean bag shot to the throat could very easily fracture the larnyx or crush the trachea which would prove to be fatal.
Close range shots to the upper chest and head can kill from blunt force, as well. The problem with riot control ammo is that it can be horribly inconsistent in its effectiveness, since it mostly relies on pain to make the subject stop. Against a motivated attacker, someone with one hell of adrenaline dump, or someone on drugs, this is NOT a reliable method of stopping them. Also, even if your attacker is stopped by the first hit, there's little to prevent them from getting up again moments later and attacking you again.

Don't do it.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:23   #168
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Close range shots to the upper chest and head can kill from blunt force, as well. The problem with riot control ammo is that it can be horribly inconsistent in its effectiveness, since it mostly relies on pain to make the subject stop. Against a motivated attacker, someone with one hell of adrenaline dump, or someone on drugs, this is NOT a reliable method of stopping them. Also, even if your attacker is stopped by the first hit, there's little to prevent them from getting up again moments later and attacking you again.

Don't do it.
Very good points - thanks for the post. Yup - I think I'm back to #4 or #1 buck for sure for inside the house. Obviously, perps who do home invasions, for whatever reason, will likely come armed and if I get the drop on him, I don't want to lose that advatage by letting him get back up.

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Old 06-14-2013, 12:53   #169
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My 12 gauge pump is loaded with Winchester Low Recoil OOBuck. I believe it is an 8 pellet load.
this is my set up in my Mossberg 500's for HD.
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