[packeagle]

I've generally been keeping the rear door unlocked. I mistakenly wasn't concerned about the possibility of a home invasion enough to change habit. I have locked the doors every night after that. Just glad it really was the police that changed the habit and not a criminal.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Stevekozak

Well, I am glad everything turned out ok. That said, I am a little disturbed that the police entered your home uninvited, based only on a phone call of seeing a flashlight moving in the house. Lock your doors!

I would expect them to do no less after (1) a concerned call, (2) flashlight moving inside, (3) open door and then (3) finding an armed person walking around in the residence. PJ’s or fully dressed might have been a clue, but not one I would count on as being a fully objective determining factor.

Step back for a second and review everything again objectively. Thankfully it wasn’t the case, but it could have also been possible the people inside that home were in real trouble. Given what they had, I would have been very thankful for their approach.
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[Misty02]

Originally Posted by packeagle

I've generally been keeping the rear door unlocked. I mistakenly wasn't concerned about the possibility of a home invasion enough to change habit. I have locked the doors every night after that. Just glad it really was the police that changed the habit and not a criminal.

Good new habit. In spite the bad experience, I would also be inclined to thank the neighbor for carrying about your welfare (don’t deter their vigilance as that can one day be what saves you and your family), I would even thank the officers; honestly, based on what they knew at the time, they were acting in your family’s best interest.

….. and yes, I would have still told them, at the time, I didn’t consent to the search knowing they would anyway.




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[packeagle]

I went over that night with the police and thanked them all for their "help." I was honestly appreciative of my neighbors concern.

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[Misty02]

Originally Posted by packeagle

I went over that night with the police and thanked them all for their "help." I was honestly appreciative of my neighbors concern.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Then it seems like a bad experience that yielded overall good results. You are now more careful with locking doors, know your neighbors care and found out that police response time in your part of town is not so shabby. Not the best way to find out about all that, but what the heck, beggars can’t be choosers.

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[Stevekozak]

Originally Posted by Misty02

I would expect them to do no less after (1) a concerned call, (2) flashlight moving inside, (3) open door and then (3) finding an armed person walking around in the residence. PJ’s or fully dressed might have been a clue, but not one I would count on as being a fully objective determining factor.

Step back for a second and review everything again objectively. Thankfully it wasn’t the case, but it could have also been possible the people inside that home were in real trouble. Given what they had, I would have been very thankful for their approach.
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Misty,
I reread the OP and subsequent posts. From what I read, the police got the concerned call. So I grant you point 1. I don't, however, see anywhere in the posts that the police saw a moving flashlight in the home. I also don't see where the door was open. Unlocked and open are two very different states of being. As I understand the posts, the police were already inside his home before they ever saw or heard the OP. So, I still have concerns about them entering the home based on the phone call. An unlocked door (as careless and "stupid" (OP not calling you stupid, I am glad you are locking your door now) as it might be, is not an invitation to enter. There may be more information that resulted in the police doing what they did, but based on what I have read here, it is concerning. At least to me.

[packeagle]

Originally Posted by packeagle

I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

They were already in the house by this point, but I did shine a flashlight on/at them.


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[Stevekozak]

Originally Posted by packeagle

They were already in the house by this point, but I did shine a flashlight on/at them.


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I stand corrected on that point. Had they seen your flashlight prior to entering the home, to your knowledge?

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Stevekozak

Misty,
I reread the OP and subsequent posts. From what I read, the police got the concerned call. So I grant you point 1. I don't, however, see anywhere in the posts that the police saw a moving flashlight in the home. I also don't see where the door was open. Unlocked and open are two very different states of being. As I understand the posts, the police were already inside his home before they ever saw or heard the OP. So, I still have concerns about them entering the home based on the phone call. An unlocked door (as careless and "stupid" (OP not calling you stupid, I am glad you are locking your door now) as it might be, is not an invitation to enter. There may be more information that resulted in the police doing what they did, but based on what I have read here, it is concerning. At least to me.

He mentioned he was going through the house with a flashlight; there is no reason to believe the officers didn’t observe from the outside long enough to see it as well. An unlocked door doesn’t imply others have consent to enter but for most properties it does represent the possibility of foul play inside given the other signs.

Let’s put it this way, I’ll personalize it so it is clear it is just what I believe/think and not what others may subscribe to. If the police respond to a call because my neighbors saw someone going through the house with a flashlight, they come and find a door unlocked and no one to greet them before they enter, I want them to come in and make sure we’re all still in one piece.

packeagle has no alarm that would chime and alert him when a door has been opened (which happens even when the alarm isn’t on), there are no dogs to alert him of intruders, the door was unlocked, he didn’t hear the arriving vehicle(s) or the person(s) entering the house. He could have been chopped into little pieces and no one would have known if not by an actual physical inspection of the premises. If you were in his place, which would you prefer? I’m not saying you should vocalize consent for a search, which I wouldn’t, but let’s be real here, packeagle was in a very vulnerable position where a crime against his home was highly possible.


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[Stevekozak]

Originally Posted by Misty02

He mentioned he was going through the house with a flashlight; there is no reason to believe the officers didn’t observe from the outside long enough to see it as well. An unlocked door doesn’t imply others have consent to enter but for most properties it does represent the possibility of foul play inside given the other signs.

Let’s put it this way, I’ll personalize it so it is clear it is just what I believe/think and not what others may subscribe to. If the police respond to a call because my neighbors saw someone going through the house with a flashlight, they come and find a door unlocked and no one to greet them before they enter, I want them to come in and make sure we’re all still in one piece.

packeagle has no alarm that would chime and alert him when a door has been opened (which happens even when the alarm isn’t on), there are no dogs to alert him of intruders, the door was unlocked, he didn’t hear the arriving vehicle(s) or the person(s) entering the house. He could have been chopped into little pieces and no one would have known if not by an actual physical inspection of the premises. If you were in his place, which would you prefer? I’m not saying you should vocalize consent for a search, which I wouldn’t, but let’s be real here, packeagle was in a very vulnerable position where a crime against his home was highly possible.


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Given only the information that has been provided by the OP, I would prefer the police not enter my home. If the back door appeared to be busted open, or other signs of foul play evident, I might have a different preference, but if the circumstances were only as presented by OP, I would be unhappy to have any one enter the home uninvited. As the OP was concerned about in his opening post, the invited presence in him home could have caused an unfortunate situation, ie: two armed and ready sets of ppl meeting suddenly in a hallway, etc.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Stevekozak

Given only the information that has been provided by the OP, I would prefer the police not enter my home. If the back door appeared to be busted open, or other signs of foul play evident, I might have a different preference, but if the circumstances were only as presented by OP, I would be unhappy to have any one enter the home uninvited. As the OP was concerned about in his opening post, the invited presence in him home could have caused an unfortunate situation, ie: two armed and ready sets of ppl meeting suddenly in a hallway, etc.

We differ on this one, obviously, and that is ok.

I do agree that it made for a potentially serious and dangerous outcome; the possibility of a shootout inside the house was high. Our door lock would be difficult to pick open, but I wouldn’t expect arriving officers to know that.


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[Green_Manelishi]

Originally Posted by racer88

So... asserting your rights as a law-abiding citizen is akin to "criminal rights???"

The fear the Police might be planning to frame you for something is a sad statement on the decline of our culture.

[racer88]

Originally Posted by Green_Manelishi

The fear the Police might be planning to frame you for something is a sad statement on the decline of our culture.

No, no, no. You're not understanding (at all). This has NOTHING to do with "framing." I'm not at all concerned about being "framed."

Asserting your rights has NOTHING to do with the avoidance of being "framed." I'm chuckling a bit, because the two things are SO far removed, the notion is laughable.

Asserting your rights (when it comes to situations like this) is about the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Amendments. The bottom line is that you could be incriminated for something you had NO part in, due to forfeiting your rights. You can be completely innocent... but at the wrong place at the wrong time... and not even know it. Forfeiting your rights (even when you have "nothing to hide") can make the difference between nothing happening and going to jail.

Always, always, ALWAYS assert your rights. It's got nothing to do with "hatin' cops" or "cooperating with LE."

To do otherwise is simply out of ignorance (of what can happen in the perfect storm of stuff you may not even be aware of).

[packeagle]

I generally agree, however, case law dictates there are exceptions to 4th amendment protections. I am sure that my example fits the protective sweep exemption to a T.

[IhRedrider]

Like others have stated.

Somethings don't add up.

You live in a neighborhood where it is dangerous enough for your neighbor to call the cops because they saw a light in your house. Your neighbor is apparently a sane and reasonable person because you went and thanked them for their "help". Yet the Cops gained entry into your house without you knowing until you almost had a face to face? Then you let them search your house AFTER an illegal entry by them? And you let them disarm you in YOUR home after an illegal entry?

Have you lodged an official complaint with the DA or filed a civil lawsuit? Out of curiosity, where do you live? Not calling you a troll, yet, but it sounds fishy. Or you live in an area that is in firm control of the "nanny protector you have no rights" government. In which case I would leave post haste or take a stand while you can. They will only violate the rights that you let them violate.

[CA Escapee]

Originally Posted by packeagle

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Use a flashlight with a red LED, the light won't travel as far.

Bill

[packeagle]

It is he honest to god truth. What would I have to gain from trolling on an online forum? I didn't even want to get into the 4th amendment implications. I wanted to know given the encounter what would have been a better course of actions. Looking back, I couldn't have done much more than locking my doors, not using a flashlight to get around, and announce my presence well before investigating the situation.

Lets look at the fact patterns surrounding the police's actions.

Exigent circumstances for entry:
-Call from the neighbor stating he sees flashlights in the home.
-He states that I am not home because my vehicle is parked in the detached carport.
-I hear a noise so I investigate, heading to the rear of the house using a flashlight (Police possibly seen it through a window before making entry.)
-Door is unlocked, but closed.

Probable cause for protective sweep:
-I meet them at the back door caring a flashlight and armed
-If I were the burglar, I could have an accomplice in the house

[JerryVO]

One question I have not seen asked is why did you announce yourself and alert the police to your presence I don't know that I would have done the same especially if I am quietly investigating. In this case that would not have gone well but if it was a bg you gave yourself away. Do most of you announce yourself in this situation?

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[jdavionic]

Interesting post...thanks for putting it out there. With false cops doing home invasions, your scenario could have easily ended in a disaster.

[packeagle]

I announced myself because of NRA personal protection in the home training course I took to obtain a Michigan CPL. Its a cya thing if (god forbid) I have to pull the trigger mostly.

[IhRedrider]

Looking back, I couldn't have done much more than locking my doors, not using a flashlight to get around, and announce my presence well before investigating the situation.

Maybe it's an absolute and uncompromising stand that I have on rights and responsibility, if someone comes into my home uninvited, they get shoot. And before any of you bleeding heart libs cry, Yes my children know this and would NEVER come in unannounced. That said, your house, your rules, do what you want. That's your right.

I personally would never stand for cops coming into my house, uninvited, based upon the unsubstantiated reports of a neighbor.

Like I said before, I'm NOT calling you a troll at this time. Maybe it's a different culture. But since you asked;

What would I have to gain from trolling on an online forum?

There are various reasons a troll will troll, either just to be a troll up to and including trying to get people to give up their rights based upon some convoluted twisted logic that does not follow logic or reason.

I am glad to know that at the end of the day you are safe.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by jopela

One question I have not seen asked is why did you announce yourself and alert the police to your presence I don't know that I would have done the same especially if I am quietly investigating. In this case that would not have gone well but if it was a bg you gave yourself away. Do most of you announce yourself in this situation?

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It’s never happened to us, so I can only speak to what I “believe” I would do. If I knew it was the police and thought there were no other uninvited guests in the house, yes, I would announce myself just as the OP did. If I didn’t know it was the police? No, I wouldn’t give up my location to the intruder.

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[jim goose]

Its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of experience. Those that generally expect their right to protection from illegal searches to be honored, have usually had some sort of bad experience before and understand the value of the 4 th amendment and why it was written. Those that think they deserve some kind of medal for making the job easier, or frown upon on others who expect law enforcement to obey the law, just have not had their bad luck yet. They usually turn fast after that.