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Old 01-26-2008, 20:03   #21
Dandapani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G27Chief View Post
OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.
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Old 01-26-2008, 21:23   #22
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3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.
That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

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Old 01-26-2008, 22:12   #23
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Quote:
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That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.
We were trained in a different way. Marksmanship, with an emphasis on speed. The wonder nine, "hollywoodized" gun fight thinking with the spray and pray technique. Some, well hell probally more then we wish to know pick up the weapon once a year on the range. I knew of some before the passage og a POST rule that had not received firearms training since the academy. I go with the shot placement and stopping the threat technique. Get on target quickly, and stay there until the threat is gone.

Giving up my model 686 for the 5903, I would still fire the same practice strings as before 2 then 1. Now a G27, 23 or 22 and I feel fine in the ability to perform my duty.

I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:22   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandapani View Post
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.
This is exactly the "average" gunfight I was talking about, that is frequently quoted. It is no longer enough for my comfort level.

Read the news once in a while.
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Old 01-27-2008, 15:33   #25
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3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.
This statistic means that a significant percentage of gunfights require MORE than 3 rounds.

Never been in a gunfight, but I imagine there are several things to worry about. Would be nice not to have to worry about running out of ammo.
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Old 01-27-2008, 16:17   #26
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[Quote]I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.[Quote]
*******************************************************
Thanks Chief, Glad the ole .38 kept you safe,these are the kind of stories that we can relate to ,some times the caliber, shot placement, shooting in to gel info means nothing, it is all good info but some times hard to understand.
When you put it into just plain english thats when what i understand. the cold hard facts.
Ya in 21 years a lot has happended in the gun and LEO field.
Stay Safe out there.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:54   #27
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In my snubs I use the Federal #357B - the 125gr full-power .357 mag. In the 340PD (1-7/8" barrel) I get 1170 fps. I was told that this would be about an 82% stopper. From the 640-3 stainless (2-1/8" barrel) I get about 1245 fps, and I'm told this would be about a 91% stopper. Both of these estimates for this round in these snubs came from people familiar with the Marshall and Sanow methods. But I've never seen test bullets for the Fed 125gr round from these snubs. Note that the estimated 91% figure for the 640-3 is equal to the 115gr +P+ from a 4-inch auto in the Marshall book.
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Old 01-29-2008, 14:58   #28
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Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.
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Old 01-29-2008, 22:53   #29
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No, not in the least. Marksmanship trumps round count any day of the week.
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Old 01-29-2008, 22:58   #30
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Never cause most of the time my 642 is a backup to this..

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Old 01-30-2008, 13:24   #31
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when im limited in waredrobe(sp?) i will drop two J frames in the front pockets and carry on....
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Old 02-02-2008, 09:45   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex G View Post
Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.

I agree, there will always be scenarios that underscore firepower.
Being alert is far the more important and a prepared mindset trumps any difference between choice of handguns, IMO.
I don't see the snubby as being the best handgun for everything by any stretch, but its unique qualities of reliability, power and pocketability allow a level of threat response that balance well for the typical situations folks like me benefit from.
Hand in pocket= hand on gun.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:23   #33
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so true....well rehersed tactics will trump the coolest gun.

in the incident mentioned above....if a single bad guy from any of the groups took a .38spl in the gut, it would probably have stopped the attack, as no one, i mean no one wants to be shot, and a targeted victim fighting back is a criminal's worst nightmare because they can deliver far more justice than any of our inept court systems.
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Old 02-02-2008, 22:07   #34
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Take out the most aggressive one first ,the others will most likely see that and say "I'am out of here".
Saw that on tv once and makes pretty good since to me>
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Old 02-03-2008, 13:17   #35
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I actualy feel overgunned carrying my 340 SC. 5 rounds are better than none that one day your in a rush and leave your "Big" gun home, or in the glove box. I doubt any of the thugs will be wearing hearing protection, The muzzle blast will take out the first half dozen or so, and after 5 shots, I'll beat the snot out of those standing with my 12oz scandium face smasher!
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Old 02-05-2008, 20:00   #36
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I carried a S&W M-36 3inch with 158 gr lswhp +P's (issue round) when I was a Detective before we went to Glocks. I always carried 2 speed loaders and never felt under armed. That extra inch of barrel added so much to the accuracy of that gun. Still in the vault.
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Old 02-10-2008, 17:38   #37
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I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.
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Old 02-10-2008, 20:08   #38
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I'm just getting back into owning a snubbie and this is my thought. The snub will be a great throw into the pocket gun for me when hitting the local stores or going someplace "rather safe". I feel in these places I will be properly equipped. I know noone can predict when or where a violent offense will occur but if I were to go into a "not so safe place of known origin" (East Side of Cleveland for example) I would have a snub for a BUG and probably carry my G21 with pleanty of extra mags.

Time, place and situation will dictate when I carry the snub or something with more punch and capacity.
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Old 02-10-2008, 22:01   #39
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I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.
Amen brother. Well said.
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Old 02-12-2008, 00:32   #40
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Amen brother. Well said.
"Here lies McGruff
Thought five was enough
If he'd had eleven
He wouldn't be in heaven."

At least as good an epitaph as " I probably won't need more firepower, statistically".


Glock 26 or snub against a group of three or more, assuming that you miss with a round or two under stress (as is extremely likely, especially in light of the tiny sights, heavy trigger and short barrel of a snub)?
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