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Old 02-14-2014, 10:16   #21
Bren
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Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...
I'm thinking more like "there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and sheep who think they are dogs...until a wolf shows up."
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:20   #22
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Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...
So now we have classes of sheepdogs? LOL

Calling a soldier or leo a sheepdog really marginalizes what they do for society. Didnt the Courts already say that Police do not have a constitutional duty to protect?

I think the whole concept is simply a way to describe someone who is able and willing to protect others from danger when they otherwise cant protect themselves. Protecting people from being preyed upon by active and armed predator. I dont think its supposed to be really all that deep.

Again, I am no sheepdog but I acknowledge that the personality exists. I just hope that if I ever do have to use a firearm in public to defend myself that a sheepdog doesnt mistake me for the badguy.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:25   #23
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No dog of any sort here.

Simply a man.

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:53   #24
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You could take it a further few steps.

1. Civil suit. You go all sheepdog in a mass shooting and cause escalation or a missed shot wounds a bystander. Have fun in court ...will cost you thousands (tens)... Face/Name all over the news. Could cause bad juju with your job (fired) and make it hard to find another job, friends, family, everything.

2. Your best bet is to find cover or better yet, escape. Most tactical commando sheepdog Internet forum folks, are they in shape, exercise regularly? Train to hop fences, crawl through a window or other small space to escape? Can they even run a few city blocks before they drop dead? Being agile, maneuverable, quick, etc, is not something I ever see discussed. What I see more often than not at the range, gun show, etc, is some fatass running his mouth about this gun vs. that gun, or caliber wars, or a host of other crap and they couldn't hop a fence or run a block to escape danger. They got their big bad ass gun and they think they are going to be Seagal or something and return fire and be the hero on TV. If you aren't paid to carry a gun you need to get away and call the professionals.
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Old 02-14-2014, 13:02   #25
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You could take it a further few steps.

1. Civil suit. You go all sheepdog in a mass shooting and cause escalation or a missed shot wounds a bystander. Have fun in court ...will cost you thousands (tens)... Face/Name all over the news. Could cause bad juju with your job (fired) and make it hard to find another job, friends, family, everything.

2. Your best bet is to find cover or better yet, escape. Most tactical commando sheepdog Internet forum folks, are they in shape, exercise regularly? Train to hop fences, crawl through a window or other small space to escape? Can they even run a few city blocks before they drop dead? Being agile, maneuverable, quick, etc, is not something I ever see discussed. What I see more often than not at the range, gun show, etc, is some fatass running his mouth about this gun vs. that gun, or caliber wars, or a host of other crap and they couldn't hop a fence or run a block to escape danger. They got their big bad ass gun and they think they are going to be Seagal or something and return fire and be the hero on TV. If you aren't paid to carry a gun you need to get away and call the professionals.
1. If you cause a mass shooting to escalate, what does it escalate into?

2. A person with some basic skills and a good attitude doesn't necessarily have to be a NavySEALRangerDELTASpecialForcesCommando to make a difference depending on the opponent and the situation.

I'm an old fatass but I can hit small targets at reasonably long ranges reliably.

Regards,
Happyguy
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Old 02-14-2014, 13:31   #26
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
1. If you cause a mass shooting to escalate, what does it escalate into?

2. A person with some basic skills and a good attitude doesn't necessarily have to be a NavySEALRangerDELTASpecialForcesCommando to make a difference depending on the opponent and the situation.
I agree that it would be hard to escalate a mass shooting into something worse.

I also agree with you that a person does not have to bee a spec-op ninja to successfully make a viable difference or win a confrontation.

The idea that a person is surely doomed to lose any confrontation if they dont run 5k every morning or bench 300lbs is intellectually dishonest. Fit people are generally more dangerous than the weak but not always.

I guarantee that out of all the violent conflicts that occur in the USA , a stark few of those involve physically fit battle hardened warriors.
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Old 02-14-2014, 13:41   #27
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toastmaster - I agree with you. I think Grossman is a pansie.

I once heard him speak. Typical motivational speaker except he came onstage with police bodyguards. WTF? Is AQ after him?

Three years TDY at Hudson High. BFD!

No combat experience. No police experience.

He found a nice marketing niche that people are willing to spend big bucks on.
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Old 02-14-2014, 19:00   #28
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toastmaster - I agree with you. I think Grossman is a pansie.

I once heard him speak. Typical motivational speaker except he came onstage with police bodyguards. WTF? Is AQ after him?

Three years TDY at Hudson High. BFD!

No combat experience. No police experience.

He found a nice marketing niche that people are willing to spend big bucks on.
It's the elitism I find that's so contemptible. The only difference between Grossman and Lee Paige ("I am da only one in da room profesheno' enuff...") is that Grossman hasn't shot himself in the foot, as far as I know. He breeds the "us versus them" attitude in spades.

We have become the nation of cowards that Jeffrey Snider wrote of. Don't resist evil yourself. Let the "sheepdogs" do it for you. Well, that's horse****. It's not the "sheepdogs'" role to protect you. Their job is to protect the "shepherd's" investment. No matter what happens in this world, you cannot abdicate personal responsibility. You are on your own. There is no "sheepdog" to save you; or, as John Farnam says, "Nobody cares".

Yes, I hate the whole "Sheep, Wolves, Sheepdog" crap. It's just that, a fairy tale cops tell themselves, or pay Grossman to tell them, to justify their jobs. That's a BS story I am not buying.
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Last edited by thetoastmaster; 02-15-2014 at 08:05.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-14-2014, 19:24   #29
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"elitism"

Yes, I think that describes him. I got the distinct impression that he did not want civilians, other than police officers, carrying firearms to protect themselves.
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Old 02-14-2014, 21:48   #30
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IMHO: Police and Military are not sheepdogs. They are the Ultimate Predators. They do not feed on sheep. They feed on other predators, thus removing the threat to the sheep.

I don't think of myself as a sheepdog. I am more of a ram with some very sharp concealed horns.

I don't know who the sheepdogs are, really.
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Old 02-14-2014, 21:49   #31
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"elitism"

Yes, I think that describes him. I got the distinct impression that he did not want civilians, other than police officers, carrying firearms to protect themselves.
I am happy that not all police feel that way. Thank you.
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The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
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Old 02-15-2014, 00:37   #32
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According to SCOTUS & Memphis, the police are just the electric fence that the shepherd (the gubmint) uses to punish sheep who disobey (enforce law). They are NOT there to "protect" or "serve".

So it seems that we gun-toters aren't sheep, and we aren't legally or civilly permitted to be sheepdogs - we're just dogs.

So who protects the sheep if they choose not to become dogs? Should anyone volunteer to protect those who don't care enough to protect themselves, and don't want to pay for professional protection?
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:37   #33
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I am grateful for the LEO's who call themselves sheepdogs. They serve a purpose. The sheepdogs free me, as a LEO, up to hunt the wolves that prey on society.......

A different take on the sheep/sheepdog mentality.
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Old 02-15-2014, 20:37   #34
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So now we have classes of sheepdogs? LOL

Calling a soldier or leo a sheepdog really marginalizes what they do for society. Didnt the Courts already say that Police do not have a constitutional duty to protect?

I think the whole concept is simply a way to describe someone who is able and willing to protect others from danger when they otherwise cant protect themselves. Protecting people from being preyed upon by active and armed predator. I dont think its supposed to be really all that deep.

Again, I am no sheepdog but I acknowledge that the personality exists. I just hope that if I ever do have to use a firearm in public to defend myself that a sheepdog doesnt mistake me for the badguy.
Sometimes people step up and its surprising who does and who doesn't. And I think the world of those guys that do. But strapping a gun on and declaring yourself a sheepdog is nonsense. You are no sheepdog until you have faced the wolf.
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:00   #35
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Lots of haters of the concept here. I also don't buy the - you aren't a sheepdog until you faced the wolf theory. Many will never face a wolf but that doesn't mean they aren't ready to do so. Likewise a cop or soldier doesn't make you a sheepdog. Many in those positions are cowards.
I am not a fan of Grossman after reading his book but I think the analogy is pretty good to use for teaching.
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Old 02-15-2014, 21:41   #36
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I won't predict what I would definitely do in a particular scenario. I will say, that things like this case need to be considered. It looks like one of the most justified shootings in America, where the shooter saved the life of a police officer. He was not treated very well at all.

http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html



Be careful, "no good deed goes unpunished" is an axiom for a reason.

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Old 02-15-2014, 22:47   #37
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I won't predict what I would definitely do in a particular scenario. I will say, that things like this case need to be considered. It looks like one of the most justified shootings in America, where the shooter saved the life of a police officer. He was not treated very well at all.

http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html



Be careful, "no good deed goes unpunished" is an axiom for a reason.
Sure, the department will cover the officer's defense, under qualified immunity. Mr. Stephens? He's screwed. Even if he wins, there are appeals and court fees to worry about.

It's just not worth it to try to save anyone but family. That's a hard fact of life.
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This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:32   #38
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1. If you cause a mass shooting to escalate, what does it escalate into?

2. A person with some basic skills and a good attitude doesn't necessarily have to be a NavySEALRangerDELTASpecialForcesCommando to make a difference depending on the opponent and the situation.

I'm an old fatass but I can hit small targets at reasonably long ranges reliably.

Regards,
Happyguy
1. Guy walks through mall with AR, pops a few people. You go John Rambo and he sees a threat with a gun and starts mag dumping your direction which kills a bunch of folks. A DA could say you made it worse. Have fun in court.

Or how about a guy who has an AR who enters a public area and starts popping rounds off trying to scare everyone. You view it as a threat and return fire, miss, hit bystanders, he returns fire, killing folks. Civil suits will be just the tip of the iceberg.

Look there are a whole host of hypotheticals they are not in your favor.

2. Who said they needed to be SOCOM, Delta Force, etc? Did I say that? No I didn't. Perhaps go read my comments again before breaking out your jump to conclusions mat.

What I said is have some level of physical fitness should be just as valuable, or more valuable than being able to shoot 3" groups at a paper target at 25 yards.

And what did I mention? I said be able to escape through a window, run a few city blocks, hop a fence. I didn't realize being able to do these things was akin to being in our Military Special Forces or a tactical commando.

If you can't run a couple of blocks and you are less than retirement age/elderly/on Medicare age perhaps a rethink of your health is in order.

I also didn't state you need to run 5k every morning or bench 300lbs.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:43   #39
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1. Guy walks through mall with AR, pops a few people. You go John Rambo and he sees a threat with a gun and starts mag dumping your direction which kills a bunch of folks. A DA could say you made it worse. Have fun in court.

Or how about a guy who has an AR who enters a public area and starts popping rounds off trying to scare everyone. You view it as a threat and return fire, miss, hit bystanders, he returns fire, killing folks. Civil suits will be just the tip of the iceberg.

Look there are a whole host of hypotheticals they are not in your favor.

2. Who said they needed to be SOCOM, Delta Force, etc? Did I say that? No I didn't. Perhaps go read my comments again before breaking out your jump to conclusions mat.

What I said is have some level of physical fitness should be just as valuable, or more valuable than being able to shoot 3" groups at a paper target at 25 yards.

And what did I mention? I said be able to escape through a window, run a few city blocks, hop a fence. I didn't realize being able to do these things was akin to being in our Military Special Forces or a tactical commando.

If you can't run a couple of blocks and you are less than retirement age/elderly/on Medicare age perhaps a rethink of your health is in order.

I also didn't state you need to run 5k every morning or bench 300lbs.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:57   #40
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1. Guy walks through mall with AR, pops a few people. You go John Rambo and he sees a threat with a gun and starts mag dumping your direction which kills a bunch of folks. A DA could say you made it worse. Have fun in court.

Or how about a guy who has an AR who enters a public area and starts popping rounds off trying to scare everyone. You view it as a threat and return fire, miss, hit bystanders, he returns fire, killing folks. Civil suits will be just the tip of the iceberg.

Look there are a whole host of hypotheticals they are not in your favor.

2. Who said they needed to be SOCOM, Delta Force, etc? Did I say that? No I didn't. Perhaps go read my comments again before breaking out your jump to conclusions mat.

What I said is have some level of physical fitness should be just as valuable, or more valuable than being able to shoot 3" groups at a paper target at 25 yards.

And what did I mention? I said be able to escape through a window, run a few city blocks, hop a fence. I didn't realize being able to do these things was akin to being in our Military Special Forces or a tactical commando.

If you can't run a couple of blocks and you are less than retirement age/elderly/on Medicare age perhaps a rethink of your health is in order.

I also didn't state you need to run 5k every morning or bench 300lbs.
"Hey Timmy, it's time to come up stairs. It's past your bedtime!"

You've been reading the "Warrior Talk" forum, haven't you?

Regards,
Happyguy
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Last edited by happyguy; 02-16-2014 at 10:02..
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