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Old 11-03-2013, 22:44   #26
Animal Mother
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Ask yourself this; is God matter or energy in a term that we understand? Who is man that he can understand the mysteries and ways of God? Unfortunately there are some things that require faith.
But you claimed to have become a believer based on study and research. How can this be if God is beyond human comprehension?
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When I say faith I am not speaking of blind faith that holds no foundation or reasoning. The proof of God is there if we are willing to acknowledge Him.
Proving God requires first acknowledging that God exists? That doesn't seem like that strong a proof. Wouldn't the same thing work for dragons, unicorns, and Vulcans?
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The Bible is not some ancient book that has run its course. The Bible is a history book that contains the failures and successes of God's people.
It also contains quite a few clearly mythological accounts.
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The Bible shows people that lean on their faith. This is all applicable today. The cultures in which things were written are different, but the character and attributes of God are all the same.
Didn't this faith and character of God lead to the slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn and the people of Canaan?
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Old 11-03-2013, 22:55   #27
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
But you claimed to have become a believer based on study and research. How can this be if God is beyond human comprehension?
Proving God requires first acknowledging that God exists? That doesn't seem like that strong a proof. Wouldn't the same thing work for dragons, unicorns, and Vulcans?
It also contains quite a few clearly mythological accounts.
Didn't this faith and character of God lead to the slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn and the people of Canaan?
I guess I have a new challenge to play with again tomorrow.

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Old 11-03-2013, 23:55   #28
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God Lit the match... Prove me wrong!
It's in Genesis.
"Let there be light." How simple is that?

Andre Reiu and his troup are proof positive there is a higher power. Bill Maher is also, But God loves him same as you non-believers. Pretty basic stuff here and it's all in the Book!

"I have a pew seat and a bible. Sit with me one year also read the Bible 7 minutes every day for that same year then we will chat. Otherwise, shut up, go away." This is what I tell folks who try to argue God with me every day. For over 30 years and still no takers.

Christianity is faith based. No faith... No Christianity.
Pretty simple really.

9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.

God bless you all.
former atheist age 15-40 years

PS...
I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
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Old 11-04-2013, 00:20   #29
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9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.
It's a fun pagan holiday, why wouldn't they?
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I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
There's no six thousand year old scrolls on how to use the internet or computers either, how do you manage that?
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Old 11-04-2013, 00:27   #30
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Originally Posted by 9jeeps View Post
God Lit the match... Prove me wrong!
It's in Genesis.
"Let there be light." How simple is that?

Andre Reiu and his troup are proof positive there is a higher power. Bill Maher is also, But God loves him same as you non-believers. Pretty basic stuff here and it's all in the Book!

"I have a pew seat and a bible. Sit with me one year also read the Bible 7 minutes every day for that same year then we will chat. Otherwise, shut up, go away." This is what I tell folks who try to argue God with me every day. For over 30 years and still no takers.

Christianity is faith based. No faith... No Christianity.
Pretty simple really.

9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.

God bless you all.
former atheist age 15-40 years

PS...
I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
Your PS line makes it clear that you don't understand the theory of evolution.

Either way, Aristotle dabbled into the ideas of evolution sometime in between 400-300BCE. You can find a few other greek philosophers that stumbled into the idea pre-dating that, like in the 1000-500BCE range. Eastern religions from same period had their own ideas aswell.

You are asking for proof that obviously will not exist. There was no understanding of genetics until the early 1800's, which is the largest building block in the Theory of Evolution; and more importantly the people that would have witnessed the first humans "the monkeys coming out of the threes" as you put it, where the people coming out of the trees. As far as we know, there was no written language and you are talking about an event that predates any recorded history by millions of years.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:33   #31
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a Christian group practicing "love bombing"...
Bill's atheist daughter, Robin, had a wonderfully upbeat attitude in Web forums, treating even her worst attackers with a dignity that they didn't deserve. She could cut right to the core of an issue and explain it in simple terms. Such a shame she was murdered.
So which is worse, in your opinion, Christian "love bombing", or the Muslim kind seen at the Boston Marathon?

William Murray wrote "My mother, brother, and daughter were murdered by fellow atheists".

Madalyn Murray totally controlled Jon and Robin, William wrote. Jon never married because of Madalyn's control-freak ways. Madalyn used food to control Robin, making her unattractive to men. By the time she was murdered, she was so heavy she had to buy 2 airline tickets each flight.

For 20 years, Jon and Robin refused to speak to William, calling him "TRAITOR" for being a Christian. They had statuettes of mating animals all over the house, a full booze cabinet, and a frig full of fatty foods. In her last decade, Madalyn became more profane and vulgar. She "stole huge amounts of money" and cheated on her taxes.

In 1960, she also attempted defection to the Soviet Union.

Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:45   #32
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I was raised a Catholic, then became an atheist at the age of 12. I had already started to have doubts, then I saw Madelyn Murray O’Hare on television, I think it was the Phil Donohue show.

Based on her opinions and observations, I thought I had become an atheist over night. This lasted until I was about 18. Then I started to question the supernatural all over again. I became agnostic.

Like the Pat Green song says; it came upon me wave on wave. My beliefs started to change slowly and I started to believe again in the Salvation of Jesus.

In 1995 at the age of 41 I had an epiphany while sitting in church one Sunday morning. Because of this epiphany I truly accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was saved in the pew.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:01   #33
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In spite of being raised in a nominally Chrisitan home, I never embraced the ideas I was presented with. I went to church for 2 reasons-to keep my mom quiet, and meet girls. Once I left home, I severed my ties with church/religion. In Marine Corps boot camp, I chose to clean the squadbay and get hazed by drill instructors instead of attending services. My belief was that religion in general, and Christianity in particular was a scam, populated with people less enlightened than I. Generally, when I came across a Christian, I would ridicule their belief, and treat them with much scorn, and a bit of pity not unlike some of the posters here. I met and eventually married a woman whose beliefs could be described as new age/occult. A series of events from that system convinced me that there are things beyond what I could see and measure scientifically. At around the same time, there were some Christians in my professional life that challenged my worldview with sound, rational arguements that forced me to investigate further than I had before. Its important to note that at the time, I was happy and enjoying my life, and had no reason to change. I read some apologetics from the standpoint of knowing my "enemy" (I follow the ideas in "Art of War") in order to better counter the theists ideas. Then a funny and unexpected thing happened - I slowly came to beleive that the claims of Christianity may be true, but still didn't want to take the step of personal belief. Through a series of events that spoke directly to my worldview, criticism, and skepticism, I couldn't deny the claims any longer, and devoted what remains of my time on earth to Christ.

Edited for grammer.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:27   #34
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Believer here.

I grew up in a secular household.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:43   #35
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Interesting - the emotion and unexplained experiences that lead people to God. I was hoping for a rational explanation somewhere.
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Old 11-04-2013, 13:21   #36
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Originally Posted by FriarTuck View Post
...

William Murray wrote "My mother, brother, and daughter were murdered by fellow atheists".

Madalyn Murray totally controlled Jon and Robin, William wrote. Jon never married because of Madalyn's control-freak ways. Madalyn used food to control Robin, making her unattractive to men. By the time she was murdered, she was so heavy she had to buy 2 airline tickets each flight.

For 20 years, Jon and Robin refused to speak to William, calling him "TRAITOR" for being a Christian. They had statuettes of mating animals all over the house, a full booze cabinet, and a frig full of fatty foods. In her last decade, Madalyn became more profane and vulgar. She "stole huge amounts of money" and cheated on her taxes.

In 1960, she also attempted defection to the Soviet Union.

Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
And how does any of this prove the existence of God?

Madalyn's mistake that led to her murder was that she got soft and let down her skepticism. She decided to give a break to an ex-con and hire him. Who knows what his real beliefs were, since he was a con man and a killer.

Isn't it a shame that America hated atheists so badly that she sought refuge abroad? It wasn't the only time she had to move. Thankfully, the pioneering efforts of Madalyn made things better for those of us who came later. At least I don't get **** in the mail and have my house stoned.

William seems to have learned well from his mother who often spoke of the money to be made in religion.
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Old 11-04-2013, 13:30   #37
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Grew up in a catholic family. Alwats saw the flaws in the stories and how they didn't make sense. Also hated having other peoples beliefs forced on me. Im an agnostic now.

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Old 11-04-2013, 14:55   #38
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As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing. It is a mystery, but there has to be a Creator of all that exists.
1. Why must there be a creator of all that exists?

2. If there must be a creator of all that exists, then who created the creator?
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Old 11-04-2013, 15:35   #39
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1. Why must there be a creator of all that exists?

2. If there must be a creator of all that exists, then who created the creator?
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As hard as it is to comprehend, God has be beginning. He has always existed.

Now you're getting into matters of faith and belief.

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Old 11-04-2013, 15:39   #40
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Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
Sure, if you concede that Fred Phelps exemplifies christian values.
Or, we could do the logical thing, and admit that there are overzealous kooks on both sides of the fence.
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Old 11-04-2013, 17:00   #41
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Sure, if you concede that Fred Phelps exemplifies christian values.
Or, we could do the logical thing, and admit that there are overzealous kooks on both sides of the fence.
And FINALLY, someone else sees it. Kudos to you. Sometimes it takes a noncom to teach the high brows a lesson.

Let's do the logical thing and just admit that some people just take some things too far. And it really doesn't matter what that thing is.

A lot of this is a theological game of pin the tail on the donkey. If a group has one or a few bad members, attempt to beat them about the head, neck and shoulders with their outliers in an attempt to defame all of the people you don't agree with. It's only a little obvious and illogical.

But playa's gotta play.

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Old 11-04-2013, 17:13   #42
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I have a hard time believing anyone could sift through all the contradictions in the bible, see all the other world religions and still believe in the jesus story. Most Christians reside in a cult that supports their way of thinking every Sunday. Those that truly question things would probably rarely go back. I would say some do for a variety of reasons i.e. fear of hell, family connections, social reasons etc...

Maybe it is possible for atheists or agnostics that ever switch sides to do so at death or extremely hard times. They are scared and unsure about religion and just hedge their bets. I could see that happening, especially someone that has had an indifferent attitude toward religion or lack thereof.
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Old 11-04-2013, 18:23   #43
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I have a hard time believing anyone could sift through all the contradictions in the bible, see all the other world religions and still believe in the jesus story. Most Christians reside in a cult that supports their way of thinking every Sunday. Those that truly question things would probably rarely go back. I would say some do for a variety of reasons i.e. fear of hell, family connections, social reasons etc...

Maybe it is possible for atheists or agnostics that ever switch sides to do so at death or extremely hard times. They are scared and unsure about religion and just hedge their bets. I could see that happening, especially someone that has had an indifferent attitude toward religion or lack thereof.
I've been a tough spot or three. I'm still unsure.

But just to throw this out there. There are at least three descriptions of the god of Abraham, and numerous flavors of the three. What if man got it wrong?

That happens. Obamacare is just the latest example of the folly of men with good intentions can do.


The only thing that is certain, is that uncertainty exists.

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Old 11-04-2013, 19:52   #44
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I've been a tough spot or three. I'm still unsure.

But just to throw this out there. There are at least three descriptions of the god of Abraham, and numerous flavors of the three. What if man got it wrong?

That happens. Obamacare is just the latest example of the folly of men with good intentions can do.


The only thing that is certain, is that uncertainty exists.
Fair enough, but that's my point. I mean, why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God leave it up fallible mortals to screw up his doctrine? Why wouldn't he just write his own manual to ensure that wouldn't happen? Better yet, why wouldn't he be involved in our lives right now instead of setting up some obscure game of hide and seek?

When you look at it from a critical and logical viewpoint, you start to see through the veil of illusion.
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Old 11-04-2013, 20:13   #45
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God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As hard as it is to comprehend, God has be beginning. He has always existed.

Now you're getting into matters of faith and belief.

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You didn't answer the question. Why must there be a beginning? Just because humans must have to have a beginning and end, it doesn't mean the universe must.

I understand the argument that God has no beginning. I just see no that there is a God. In can see evidence that there is a universe.
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Old 11-04-2013, 21:48   #46
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You didn't answer the question. Why must there be a beginning? Just because humans must have to have a beginning and end, it doesn't mean the universe must.

I understand the argument that God has no beginning. I just see no that there is a God. In can see evidence that there is a universe.
I answered the question. You just don't like the answer. I'm not going to force you to believe in God. We have two different views. Neither view makes either of us less of an intellectual.

If there is a particular answer you're looking for please point me in the direction you are wanting me to go. I will do my best to find what I can to give you a satisfactory answer.

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Old 11-05-2013, 00:53   #47
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I answered the question. You just don't like the answer.
The problem is that your answer contradicts the conditions you yourself erroneously set earlier in the conversation.
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As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing.
If something (God) can't come from nothing, then how did God come into existence? Arguing:
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God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As hard as it is to comprehend, God has be beginning. He has always existed.
is simply special pleading. I could just as easily say that the universe has always existed, that is there is no time such that the universe did not exist, therefore the universe itself can be considered the creative being behind all we observe. Why is your claim any more "true" than mine?
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:02   #48
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Believer here.

I grew up in a secular household.
Please explain. I am interested in your path from NON-belief to belief...
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:11   #49
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I was raised a Catholic, then became an atheist at the age of 12. I had already started to have doubts, then I saw Madelyn Murray O’Hare on television, I think it was the Phil Donohue show.

Based on her opinions and observations, I thought I had become an atheist over night. This lasted until I was about 18. Then I started to question the supernatural all over again. I became agnostic.

Like the Pat Green song says; it came upon me wave on wave. My beliefs started to change slowly and I started to believe again in the Salvation of Jesus.

In 1995 at the age of 41 I had an epiphany while sitting in church one Sunday morning. Because of this epiphany I truly accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was saved in the pew.
Excellent story, thanks for being honest and thorough. I obviously went the opposite direction, so I am curious about GT members that had no exposure to religion growing up that became religious later in life.

What positive impact has it had on your life?
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:10   #50
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Fair enough, but that's my point. I mean, why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God leave it up fallible mortals to screw up his doctrine? Why wouldn't he just write his own manual to ensure that wouldn't happen? Better yet, why wouldn't he be involved in our lives right now instead of setting up some obscure game of hide and seek?

When you look at it from a critical and logical viewpoint, you start to see through the veil of illusion.
It's a mystery, but consider if there was an intelligence involved in the origin of life on the planet or the universe, and maybe it wasn't all powerful? Maybe it wasn't imortal. Maybe it lit the fuse and ran away like one of us would do from a stick of dynamite. Maybe we don't understand how it all began, and it's easy to make assumptions to fill in the gaps. What is certain is that whatever happened, it didn't happen the way some of us think it did, because there are disagreements.
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