GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-03-2013, 22:27   #21
Guss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvv View Post
...
I have found that most of the people setting out on a quest to disprove God eventully come to accept Christ. There is more proof to the existence of Christ than there is against it. There is more proving Jesus' authenticity as Messiah than there is against it.
...
There is no need to go on a quest to disprove god because god has never been proven. You can't prove something doesn't exist when it doesn't exist, so there is no need to cultivate anxieties over it.

There is enough evidence that a man known as Jesus existed that I find it a reasonable proposition. He seems to have been an oddball rabbi who stepped on too many political toes. He apparently tried to be a Messiah, but failed.
Guss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:16   #22
Revvv
Senior Member
 
Revvv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guss View Post
There is no need to go on a quest to disprove god because god has never been proven. You can't prove something doesn't exist when it doesn't exist, so there is no need to cultivate anxieties over it.

There is enough evidence that a man known as Jesus existed that I find it a reasonable proposition. He seems to have been an oddball rabbi who stepped on too many political toes. He apparently tried to be a Messiah, but failed.
....and that is something I won't argue with. You are entitled to that opinion. I disagree with you in that there is no proof God exists, but the proof I give can and has been debated. Skepticism is fine in my book.

As for Jesus; I have said it before that there are two ways to view Jesus. He was either a good man and the Son of God, the promised Messiah, or He was a lunitic and a liar. Jesus could not be a good man without being true to His claims.

A lot of my belief in God comes from the accounts of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament as well as in Historians that lived during the time Jesus walked the earth. Jesus claimed Himself as Messiah. Jesus performed many miracles and attracted thousands. These people were eye witnesses to Jesus raising the dead, healing the sick, etc. The Gospel writers wrote about the accounts of Christ while there were still witnesses that could attest to the accountability of their statements. Josephus and other Historians also spoke of Christ and His miracles.

As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing. It is a mystery, but there has to be a Creator of all that exists.

Science is determined to explain God away. For me, I believe that God and science have to coexist. Once you begin to include the devine hand of God into the mysteries and advances of science you begin to have a better understanding of the world and life's purpose.

Sent from my DROIDX using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Revvv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:21   #23
Guss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvv View Post
....
As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing. It is a mystery, but there has to be a Creator of all that exists.

...
But if everything has to have a creator, you are left asking what higher god created your god. If, on the other hand, you can accept that something could have been in existence forever, then you can accept that matter and energy have been in existence forever.
Guss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:28   #24
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvv View Post
As for Jesus; I have said it before that there are two ways to view Jesus. He was either a good man and the Son of God, the promised Messiah, or He was a lunitic and a liar. Jesus could not be a good man without being true to His claims.
You exclude a number of other possibilities, including that Jesus was either a historical teacher or an invention who was later combined with the Christ after his death. We have no way of knowing if the words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels were in fact his own.
Quote:
A lot of my belief in God comes from the accounts of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament as well as in Historians that lived during the time Jesus walked the earth.
What historians were these?
Quote:
Jesus claimed Himself as Messiah. Jesus performed many miracles and attracted thousands. These people were eye witnesses to Jesus raising the dead, healing the sick, etc. The Gospel writers wrote about the accounts of Christ while there were still witnesses that could attest to the accountability of their statements.
And yet none did.
Quote:
Josephus and other Historians also spoke of Christ and His miracles.
Josephus was the only one who possibly spoke of Jesus as doing miracles, and if that passage is authentic it is entirely out of character for Josephus as believing Jew to write it, leading to the argument it is part of the known later Christian additions.
Quote:
As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing.
Science actually shows exactly the opposite. It has also shown that causality can be violated.
Quote:
It is a mystery, but there has to be a Creator of all that exists.
Which leads to the inevitable question, "What created God?"
Quote:
Science is determined to explain God away.
Incorrect, science is determined to explain the natural universe.
Quote:
For me, I believe that God and science have to coexist. Once you begin to include the devine hand of God into the mysteries and advances of science you begin to have a better understanding of the world and life's purpose.
How does the divine hand of the Christian God better fit the observations of science than the actions of Brahma or Odin?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:33   #25
Revvv
Senior Member
 
Revvv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guss View Post
But if everything has to have a creator, you are left asking what higher god created your god. If, on the other hand, you can accept that something could have been in existence forever, then you can accept that matter and energy have been in existence forever.
Now you are thinking along the lines that I once did. I always had fun putting doubt into the minds of believers by asking questions that I knew they could not answer.

Ask yourself this; is God matter or energy in a term that we understand? Who is man that he can understand the mysteries and ways of God? Unfortunately there are some things that require faith.

When I say faith I am not speaking of blind faith that holds no foundation or reasoning. The proof of God is there if we are willing to acknowledge Him.

The Bible is not some ancient book that has run its course. The Bible is a history book that contains the failures and successes of God's people. The Bible shows people that lean on their faith. This is all applicable today. The cultures in which things were written are different, but the character and attributes of God are all the same.

Sent from my DROIDX using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Revvv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:44   #26
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvv View Post
Ask yourself this; is God matter or energy in a term that we understand? Who is man that he can understand the mysteries and ways of God? Unfortunately there are some things that require faith.
But you claimed to have become a believer based on study and research. How can this be if God is beyond human comprehension?
Quote:
When I say faith I am not speaking of blind faith that holds no foundation or reasoning. The proof of God is there if we are willing to acknowledge Him.
Proving God requires first acknowledging that God exists? That doesn't seem like that strong a proof. Wouldn't the same thing work for dragons, unicorns, and Vulcans?
Quote:
The Bible is not some ancient book that has run its course. The Bible is a history book that contains the failures and successes of God's people.
It also contains quite a few clearly mythological accounts.
Quote:
The Bible shows people that lean on their faith. This is all applicable today. The cultures in which things were written are different, but the character and attributes of God are all the same.
Didn't this faith and character of God lead to the slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn and the people of Canaan?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 23:55   #27
Revvv
Senior Member
 
Revvv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
But you claimed to have become a believer based on study and research. How can this be if God is beyond human comprehension?
Proving God requires first acknowledging that God exists? That doesn't seem like that strong a proof. Wouldn't the same thing work for dragons, unicorns, and Vulcans?
It also contains quite a few clearly mythological accounts.
Didn't this faith and character of God lead to the slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn and the people of Canaan?
I guess I have a new challenge to play with again tomorrow.

Sent from my DROIDX using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Revvv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 00:55   #28
9jeeps
Fogey
 
9jeeps's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: at the end of the road
Posts: 4,209
God Lit the match... Prove me wrong!
It's in Genesis.
"Let there be light." How simple is that?

Andre Reiu and his troup are proof positive there is a higher power. Bill Maher is also, But God loves him same as you non-believers. Pretty basic stuff here and it's all in the Book!

"I have a pew seat and a bible. Sit with me one year also read the Bible 7 minutes every day for that same year then we will chat. Otherwise, shut up, go away." This is what I tell folks who try to argue God with me every day. For over 30 years and still no takers.

Christianity is faith based. No faith... No Christianity.
Pretty simple really.

9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.

God bless you all.
former atheist age 15-40 years

PS...
I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
__________________
FOGEY
Trying to make
sense of it all.

Last edited by 9jeeps; 11-04-2013 at 00:58..
9jeeps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 01:20   #29
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9jeeps View Post
9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.
It's a fun pagan holiday, why wouldn't they?
Quote:
I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
There's no six thousand year old scrolls on how to use the internet or computers either, how do you manage that?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 01:27   #30
The Maggy
Senior Member
 
The Maggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Stillwater, OK
Posts: 3,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9jeeps View Post
God Lit the match... Prove me wrong!
It's in Genesis.
"Let there be light." How simple is that?

Andre Reiu and his troup are proof positive there is a higher power. Bill Maher is also, But God loves him same as you non-believers. Pretty basic stuff here and it's all in the Book!

"I have a pew seat and a bible. Sit with me one year also read the Bible 7 minutes every day for that same year then we will chat. Otherwise, shut up, go away." This is what I tell folks who try to argue God with me every day. For over 30 years and still no takers.

Christianity is faith based. No faith... No Christianity.
Pretty simple really.

9.9 chances out of 10 almost every atheist celebrates Christmas. Think on that a minute.

God bless you all.
former atheist age 15-40 years

PS...
I'm looking for a book or scrolls written over six thousand years ago that tell me of Natural Selection and monkeys coming out of the trees. Evolution in general. Lemme know if you have a source.
Your PS line makes it clear that you don't understand the theory of evolution.

Either way, Aristotle dabbled into the ideas of evolution sometime in between 400-300BCE. You can find a few other greek philosophers that stumbled into the idea pre-dating that, like in the 1000-500BCE range. Eastern religions from same period had their own ideas aswell.

You are asking for proof that obviously will not exist. There was no understanding of genetics until the early 1800's, which is the largest building block in the Theory of Evolution; and more importantly the people that would have witnessed the first humans "the monkeys coming out of the threes" as you put it, where the people coming out of the trees. As far as we know, there was no written language and you are talking about an event that predates any recorded history by millions of years.
__________________

The Maggy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 09:33   #31
FriarTuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guss View Post
a Christian group practicing "love bombing"...
Bill's atheist daughter, Robin, had a wonderfully upbeat attitude in Web forums, treating even her worst attackers with a dignity that they didn't deserve. She could cut right to the core of an issue and explain it in simple terms. Such a shame she was murdered.
So which is worse, in your opinion, Christian "love bombing", or the Muslim kind seen at the Boston Marathon?

William Murray wrote "My mother, brother, and daughter were murdered by fellow atheists".

Madalyn Murray totally controlled Jon and Robin, William wrote. Jon never married because of Madalyn's control-freak ways. Madalyn used food to control Robin, making her unattractive to men. By the time she was murdered, she was so heavy she had to buy 2 airline tickets each flight.

For 20 years, Jon and Robin refused to speak to William, calling him "TRAITOR" for being a Christian. They had statuettes of mating animals all over the house, a full booze cabinet, and a frig full of fatty foods. In her last decade, Madalyn became more profane and vulgar. She "stole huge amounts of money" and cheated on her taxes.

In 1960, she also attempted defection to the Soviet Union.

Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
FriarTuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 10:45   #32
Ricky Ricardo
Senior Member
 
Ricky Ricardo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 736
I was raised a Catholic, then became an atheist at the age of 12. I had already started to have doubts, then I saw Madelyn Murray O’Hare on television, I think it was the Phil Donohue show.

Based on her opinions and observations, I thought I had become an atheist over night. This lasted until I was about 18. Then I started to question the supernatural all over again. I became agnostic.

Like the Pat Green song says; it came upon me wave on wave. My beliefs started to change slowly and I started to believe again in the Salvation of Jesus.

In 1995 at the age of 41 I had an epiphany while sitting in church one Sunday morning. Because of this epiphany I truly accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I was saved in the pew.
Ricky Ricardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 11:01   #33
scottz0369
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Tomah, WI
Posts: 164
In spite of being raised in a nominally Chrisitan home, I never embraced the ideas I was presented with. I went to church for 2 reasons-to keep my mom quiet, and meet girls. Once I left home, I severed my ties with church/religion. In Marine Corps boot camp, I chose to clean the squadbay and get hazed by drill instructors instead of attending services. My belief was that religion in general, and Christianity in particular was a scam, populated with people less enlightened than I. Generally, when I came across a Christian, I would ridicule their belief, and treat them with much scorn, and a bit of pity not unlike some of the posters here. I met and eventually married a woman whose beliefs could be described as new age/occult. A series of events from that system convinced me that there are things beyond what I could see and measure scientifically. At around the same time, there were some Christians in my professional life that challenged my worldview with sound, rational arguements that forced me to investigate further than I had before. Its important to note that at the time, I was happy and enjoying my life, and had no reason to change. I read some apologetics from the standpoint of knowing my "enemy" (I follow the ideas in "Art of War") in order to better counter the theists ideas. Then a funny and unexpected thing happened - I slowly came to beleive that the claims of Christianity may be true, but still didn't want to take the step of personal belief. Through a series of events that spoke directly to my worldview, criticism, and skepticism, I couldn't deny the claims any longer, and devoted what remains of my time on earth to Christ.

Edited for grammer.
Sent from my DROID2 using Ohub Campfire mobile app

Last edited by scottz0369; 11-04-2013 at 11:02..
scottz0369 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 11:27   #34
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,512
Believer here.

I grew up in a secular household.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------
Warranty voiding

Never buy vegan tacos from a chick with longer armpit hair than yourself. - Woofie
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 13:43   #35
Guss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,578
Interesting - the emotion and unexplained experiences that lead people to God. I was hoping for a rational explanation somewhere.
Guss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 14:21   #36
Guss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriarTuck View Post
...

William Murray wrote "My mother, brother, and daughter were murdered by fellow atheists".

Madalyn Murray totally controlled Jon and Robin, William wrote. Jon never married because of Madalyn's control-freak ways. Madalyn used food to control Robin, making her unattractive to men. By the time she was murdered, she was so heavy she had to buy 2 airline tickets each flight.

For 20 years, Jon and Robin refused to speak to William, calling him "TRAITOR" for being a Christian. They had statuettes of mating animals all over the house, a full booze cabinet, and a frig full of fatty foods. In her last decade, Madalyn became more profane and vulgar. She "stole huge amounts of money" and cheated on her taxes.

In 1960, she also attempted defection to the Soviet Union.

Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
And how does any of this prove the existence of God?

Madalyn's mistake that led to her murder was that she got soft and let down her skepticism. She decided to give a break to an ex-con and hire him. Who knows what his real beliefs were, since he was a con man and a killer.

Isn't it a shame that America hated atheists so badly that she sought refuge abroad? It wasn't the only time she had to move. Thankfully, the pioneering efforts of Madalyn made things better for those of us who came later. At least I don't get **** in the mail and have my house stoned.

William seems to have learned well from his mother who often spoke of the money to be made in religion.
Guss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 14:30   #37
Diesel McBadass
Tactically Epic
 
Diesel McBadass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maine
Posts: 5,622
Grew up in a catholic family. Alwats saw the flaws in the stories and how they didn't make sense. Also hated having other peoples beliefs forced on me. Im an agnostic now.

Sent from my SCH-R830 using Ohub Campfire mobile app
__________________
GTDS
Diesel McBadass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 15:55   #38
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Revvv View Post
As for God existing; science shows that something cannot come from nothing. It is a mystery, but there has to be a Creator of all that exists.
1. Why must there be a creator of all that exists?

2. If there must be a creator of all that exists, then who created the creator?
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 16:35   #39
Revvv
Senior Member
 
Revvv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
1. Why must there be a creator of all that exists?

2. If there must be a creator of all that exists, then who created the creator?
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. As hard as it is to comprehend, God has be beginning. He has always existed.

Now you're getting into matters of faith and belief.

Sent from my DROIDX using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Revvv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 16:39   #40
Sarge1400
Senior Member
 
Sarge1400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by FriarTuck View Post

Gotta love those Atheist values, huh?
Sure, if you concede that Fred Phelps exemplifies christian values.
Or, we could do the logical thing, and admit that there are overzealous kooks on both sides of the fence.
Sarge1400 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 711
159 Members
552 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42