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Old 07-14-2013, 19:01   #251
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Originally Posted by JohnnyE View Post
If that happened, M would have said Z jumped/threatened/surprised him, and, with only one party still alive to tell the tale, we may well have had the same result from the jury. We just won't know what the spark was that initiated the fatal encounter that evening.
There's actually a very recent real-life case that applies with your analogy.

Jodi Arias said that she killed her boyfriend (or whatever they hell they were to each other) in self defense because she thought he was going to kill her. The jury heard all the evidence, and it DID NOT support her story. They convicted her.

People seem quite ready to blow off juries in this country. I think the reason is because of cases they've disagreed with, be it OJ, Arias, Anthony, Zimmerman, or whatever.

But the thing to remember is that BOTH sides in a case get to pick jurors, and they're not looking for buck-toothed Billy, the back-woods hick that hasn't seen any civilization other than his runs to town to stock his still. They're looking for smart people that can take in information, process it, and make a decision.

The other thing to remember is that when everyone wants to bash on juries for leaning one way or another, never forget that you could end up in the chair Zimmerman's been in for the last month or so. I'm willing to bet you'll want a jury that can be led to believe your side of the story then.

In short, yeah, had Martin spilled Zimmerman's brain-matter on the sidewalk that night, he could have TRIED to claim self defense, but if all other evidence was the same, the jury wouldn't buy it, and he'd go to jail. Just my opinion, of course, worth every cent you paid for it.
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:13   #252
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I think we need to temper even that with the fact that both Zimmerman and the investigating officers felt he was within the law. If it had been left at that, it would have been a fair thing to ask him, 18 months later to evaluate his own actions.

BUT

Add to it the fact that every belly crawling, boot licking, scum sucking politician from the City Administrator to the POTUS stuck their nose in it and blew it out of proportion, and that puts a whole different spin on his feelings.

This!!!

Countrygun, you put it out of the park again!

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Old 07-14-2013, 19:21   #253
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Quit blaming the rape victim for the rape.

George Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal when he was assaulted by a wannabe thug (and there is PLENTY of support for that statement on Martin's phone). He was being a concerned citizen and was attacked.

That is not "foolish".
I'm not talking about illegal behavior by Zimmerman. I'm saying that in hindsight, he wasn't using good judgement.

Aside from having a gun, Zimmerman wasn't a warrior, or even a competent grappler. The suspect was a mystery man with unmeasured ability and attitude. It was a low-visibility environment that made it difficult to know if an ambusher or pursuer was lurking. Nevertheless, Zimmerman stepped into that situation as though the risk was not a concern.

A man who sets out for the drugstore on icy streets when it isn't necessary, but with good intentions, takes a risk knowing that the errand could end badly. When he kills someone, or is killed, in an accident due to slippery streets that could have been avoided by staying home, it is fair to say he erred in judgement. He took the unnecessary risk because he judged the odds to be acceptable. Bad decision. Poor judgement. What else would you call it?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 07-14-2013 at 19:41..
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:23   #254
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Zimmerman was foolish. He was a wannabe cop. However, the fact remains that Martin initiated the physical confrontation... at that point... Zimmerman was well within his rights to defend himself. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread.... I bet Zimmerman wishes he would have just stayed in the car and minded his own business.
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:27   #255
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Ok folks, I tis time I lay the cards on the table about a little event in my own family that has impacted my judgment on this issue but I wanted to keep it out of the threads until the verdict. It also speaks to the "would have done it differently" issue.

In the winter of 1955 my Grandfather (part "Native American" and part "White") killed a Black man in a fight. There were some similarities to this case, and actually, it was more similar in the facts of the killing, than different, if you look at it objectively.

My Grandfather was working at his job as a mechanic for a large corporation with industrial and passenger vehicles. The garage bordered a less than desirable section of town, not by any racial divisions, simply a melting pot called "Skid row".

My grandfather was alone in the garage because everyone else was out on service calls. He discovered a man had snuck into the mechanic's locker room and was rifling the lockers.
Grandpa went to the phone to call the cops. The man apparently spotted or heard him and follow him into the service bay of the garage where the phone was. He jumped Grandpa and proceeded to strangle him. He pinned Grandpa against a work bench but as tunnel vision was coming on Grandpa managed to reach up and grab a massive "C" clamp. With one blow he split the miscreants skull like a walnut, but the injury was no immediately fatal and the recipient was able to stagger out the door and die in the gutter.

Grandfather called the police, all was duly noted and investigated and it was never pursued.

A couple of decades later, the story had been related to me and being curious I felt I had to ask my Grandfather about it, and if he would have done anything differently.

"Well, if I'd known he was going to jump me like that, I would've hit him first"


It was a much better world when we thought about how to have an advantage over criminals, than today where we wet ourselves worrying over the ramifications from handling them.

Last edited by countrygun; 07-14-2013 at 19:32..
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:27   #256
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It's hard to know what choices one will make in such a tough situation until one is put in that situation! Fight or flight...
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:35   #257
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I think we need to temper even that with the fact that both Zimmerman and the investigating officers felt he was within the law. If it had been left at that, it would have been a fair thing to ask him, 18 months later to evaluate his own actions.

BUT

Add to it the fact that every belly crawling, boot licking, scum sucking politician from the City Administrator to the POTUS stuck their nose in it and blew it out of proportion, and that puts a whole different spin on his feelings.
Precisely.


Thanks to Merriam-Websters' thesaurus, here are some synonyms for the word foolish: absurd, asinine, balmy, brainless, bubbleheaded, cockeyed, crackpot, crazy, cuckoo, daffy, daft, dippy, dotty, fatuous, featherheaded, fool, half-baked, harebrained, half-witted, inept, insane, jerky, kooky, loony, lunatic, lunkheaded, mad, nonsensical, nutty, preposterous, sappy, screwball, senseless, silly, simpleminded, stupid, tomfool...


The word foolish does not apply to Z in my opinion.
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:49   #258
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Lets pretend M had murdered Z, and then M had been caught, tried, convicted and sentenced to life for murder.

How do you think M would answer if asked, "if you had the chance to do this all over again, what, if anything, would you do differently?"
is this supposed to be an even remotely valid comparison. Someone convicted of murder in one scenario versus someone acquitted of Murder?
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Old 07-14-2013, 19:57   #259
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is this supposed to be an even remotely valid comparison. Someone convicted of murder in one scenario versus someone acquitted of Murder?
Yes, the initial philosophical premise from the other poster was followed; nonetheless, I admit to exaggerating the point on purpose, however, in my scenario the criminal lived and was the one able to look back on the event in retrospect.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:00   #260
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But the thing to remember is that BOTH sides in a case get to pick jurors, and they're not looking for buck-toothed Billy, the back-woods hick that hasn't seen any civilization other than his runs to town to stock his still. They're looking for smart people that can take in information, process it, and make a decision.
How ignorant. Stereotype much? You couldn't say something similar about blacks without being banned. But you'll say it about whites. Typical. It's effete urbanites that have brought us most of the laws, taxes, and regulations we suffer under, not "Billy". I'll take a good ole clear-minded country boy on my jury any day rather than some self-loathing suburbanite who thinks good country folk are "buck-toothed Bill[ies]".
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:14   #261
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It was a much better world when we thought about how to have an advantage over criminals, than today where we wet ourselves worrying over the ramifications from handling them.
I won't argue with that... but we have to exist in the world as it is. We can try to change it for the better, but we have to live in the here and now.

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I love people who try to apply their standards as if they were the basis for the rest of the Country.

Around here what GZ did would be considered completely normal. On the heaviest regular scheduled moment, out side of two small town PDs we have 3 County Deputies and a State trooper to cover a County larger than the State of Rhode Island. At that time of night we would probably have one Deputy or two and a 50/50 chance of a State Trooper.

We get involved.

Most of us are scratching our heads about why anybody thinks he did anything wrong.
Here ain't the same for us all. Something to factor into the decision making process.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:19   #262
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How ignorant. Stereotype much? You couldn't say something similar about blacks without being banned. But you'll say it about whites. Typical. It's effete urbanites that have brought us most of the laws, taxes, and regulations we suffer under, not "Billy". I'll take a good ole clear-minded country boy on my jury any day rather than some self-loathing suburbanite who thinks good country folk are "buck-toothed Bill[ies]".
Agreed.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:24   #263
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How ignorant. Stereotype much? You couldn't say something similar about blacks without being banned. But you'll say it about whites. Typical. It's effete urbanites that have brought us most of the laws, taxes, and regulations we suffer under, not "Billy". I'll take a good ole clear-minded country boy on my jury any day rather than some self-loathing suburbanite who thinks good country folk are "buck-toothed Bill[ies]".
Considering I come from family in the hills of KY and WV, I'm pretty confident in what I'm saying. If it offended you, then report it. Otherwise, take it for what it is: a hyperbolic, cartoonish exaggeration of a stereotype.

If you think it's stupid that people get offended by stereotypes - as I do - then you can't get offended by stereotypes that could possibly apply to you.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:24   #264
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Forget about guilt or innocence, the jury will decide that. Can we at least agree Zimmerman was a fool?

I have some annoying neighbors, when they get out of hand I call the cops. I figure let these *******s deal with those *******s.

Thoughts?
No. I can't agree to that. He was a good neighbor that was trying to do the right thing. The fact that he was attacked by a thug was not his fault.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:43   #265
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Zimmerman did more than just "get out of his car". The fight and shooting took place a considerable distance from his vehicle. it took place on the far side of a row of townhouses from where zimmermans vehicle was parked.
The statement was, "He never should have got out of his car." That's a lot of bull. He has ever right in the world to gt out of his car anytime and any where he want's to. Getting out of his car has nothing to do with what happened after or the blame for what happened after. Millions of people get out of their cars every day with out any one trying to beat their head in to the concrete.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:52   #266
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I'm not talking about illegal behavior by Zimmerman. I'm saying that in hindsight, he wasn't using good judgement.
Those two sentences right there prove you don't understand what "blaming the victim for her rape" means.

In hindsight, wearing a midriff-bearing, skin-tight shirt with a skirt so short it's nearly a belt with stocking and heels and the whole shebang to a club in the roughest part of town might not be good judgement. But it's not illegal, and standing up and saying "Well, ya know, in hindsight....." is blaming the victim.

You're blaming George Zimmerman, saying it's his "poor judgement" (which I completely disagree with, BTW) that, in hindsight, is the reason why Martin jumped him and was beating on him.


Perhaps - and I'm just spitballing here - the reason why Martin jumped him has nothing at all to do with Zimmerman's choice, but rather that Martin was feeling he was going to teach someone a lesson about.....whatever the hell he thought he was teaching.
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Old 07-14-2013, 20:59   #267
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To be fair to JE, he responded to a new premise, which I created, for the M & Z event.
Yes, I know, but none of the physical evidence supports what would be his version of events.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:02   #268
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The statement was, "He never should have got out of his car." That's a lot of bull. He has ever right in the world to gt out of his car anytime and any where he want's to. Getting out of his car has nothing to do with what happened after or the blame for what happened after. Millions of people get out of their cars every day with out any one trying to beat their head in to the concrete.
There are lots of things that are perfectly legal and millions of people do everyday with no adverse consequences that may not be a tactically sound decision in other circumstances.

It's not blaming the victim to consider exiting (and distancing himself from) the car to be a tactical error when following a person whose behavior he already judged to be suspicious. It was not Zimmerman's fault that he was attacked, but he put himself in a position that made the attack easier to happen.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:06   #269
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Those two sentences right there prove you don't understand what "blaming the victim for her rape" means.

In hindsight, wearing a midriff-bearing, skin-tight shirt with a skirt so short it's nearly a belt with stocking and heels and the whole shebang to a club in the roughest part of town might not be good judgement. But it's not illegal, and standing up and saying "Well, ya know, in hindsight....." is blaming the victim.

You're blaming George Zimmerman, saying it's his "poor judgement" (which I completely disagree with, BTW) that, in hindsight, is the reason why Martin jumped him and was beating on him.


Perhaps - and I'm just spitballing here - the reason why Martin jumped him has nothing at all to do with Zimmerman's choice, but rather that Martin was feeling he was going to teach someone a lesson about.....whatever the hell he thought he was teaching.

I am amzed by what I am hearing.

What kind of ninnyhammer can say that a person LEGALLY looking out for his neighbors is in any way at fault when he is ILLEGALLY ASSAULTED by a thug?

Give up trying to convince the rest of us to hide under the bed with you. Not only do you live in fear of the bad guys but you are also in fear of the good guys. Just stay out of the way. I almost have more respect for the thugs than I do you folks. " Don't do anything and you won't get in trouble" is a terrible way to live.

How many other people's permission do they need before they feel safe enough to do anything?

I would rather have George Zimmerman as a neighbor than the panty wetters that judge him.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:10   #270
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Actually, let me spin this around.

For those of you that are applauding what Zimmerman did, and think we need more people like him, how many times a week are you out patrolling your neighborhood streets, and how many "suspects" do you follow on foot per week?
Pretty much everyday. All of them.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:21   #271
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There are lots of things that are perfectly legal and millions of people do everyday with no adverse consequences that may not be a tactically sound decision in other circumstances.

It's not blaming the victim to consider exiting (and distancing himself from) the car to be a tactical error when following a person whose behavior he already judged to be suspicious. It was not Zimmerman's fault that he was attacked, but he put himself in a position that made the attack easier to happen.
Every person who was ever attacked more than a year after they left the womb probably did SOMETHING to put them selves in the position to be attacked with that logic.

Sure there are always things a person could have done different or better or less worse with all the knowledge of all the events after the fact. Still you don't know if they may have made it better or worse. He may have set in the car watching TM as TM's partners moved in behind him for a murder and car jacking. There is no end to the hypotheticals if you just want to see if you can figure out some Hollywood twist at the end to justify what you wish had happened.

This is what is, this is what happened, Z did nothing illegal, was it smart? Are people here any smarter? I'm not seeing much sign of it.

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Old 07-14-2013, 21:37   #272
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Watching Fox News and looking at old interviews (web surfing) I have to agree, the comments I made earlier were way off. I now have a better understanding of the facts. Thanks for challenging me to look and research.
So I will say
Jury did get it right.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:39   #273
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The statement was, "He never should have got out of his car." That's a lot of bull. He has ever right in the world to gt out of his car anytime and any where he want's to. Getting out of his car has nothing to do with what happened after or the blame for what happened after. Millions of people get out of their cars every day with out any one trying to beat their head in to the concrete.
I would be one of those that would say he should not have gotten out of the car. Does that men he is at fault for the shooting? NO, what it does mean is he took a risk that clearly was beyond his abilities to deal with.

The evidence is pretty clear, he was almost killed.

Like it or not, Z screwed up, his decision to do so and his lack of awareness allowed his attacker to sneak up on him and physically assault him. in short, while it was Martin's decision to attack him it was Z's actions and apparent overestimation of his own abilities that made that ambush possible.

As I stated before, he did more than just "Get out of his car", he decided to follow a suspicious person through the rain and the dark and obviously failed to use sufficient caution in doing so.

Trying to compare his actions to someone simply getting out of their car vs. someone who already had a negative encounter then deciding to follow that person is absurd.

Z made some serious mistakes, that does not lessen Martins guilt\responsibility for HIS decision
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:42   #274
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I would be one of those that would say he should not have gotten out of the car. Does that men he is at fault for the shooting? NO, what it does mean is he took a risk that clearly was beyond his abilities to deal with.

The evidence is pretty clear, he was almost killed.

Like it or not, Z screwed up, his decision to do so and his lack of awareness allowed his attacker to sneak up on him and physically assault him. in short, while it was Martin's decision to attack him it was Z's actions and apparent overestimation of his own abilities that made that ambush possible.

As I stated before, he did more than just "Get out of his car", he decided to follow a suspicious person through the rain and the dark and obviously failed to use sufficient caution in doing so.

Trying to compare his actions to someone simply getting out of their car vs. someone who already had a negative encounter then deciding to follow that person is absurd.

Z made some serious mistakes, that does not lessen Martins guilt\responsibility for HIS decision

Because someone gets hurt, does not mean "they screwed up"

Sometimes risks are associated with actions. That you get injured, does not equate to a mistake.



I know lots of cops, firefighters, and soldiers who've been injured, and did everything right.



There were risks associated with following a suspicious man at night. Z accepted those risks when he stepped out of the car.
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Old 07-14-2013, 21:44   #275
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In hindsight, wearing a midriff-bearing, skin-tight shirt with a skirt so short it's nearly a belt with stocking and heels and the whole shebang to a club in the roughest part of town might not be good judgement. But it's not illegal, and standing up and saying "Well, ya know, in hindsight....." is blaming the victim.
no one here has said Z's actions were illegal, just poor judgment on his part.

For some reason many here keep trying to make the connection Legal= ok illegal = bad.

Simply because something is legal does not make it prudent. Many here appear to long for the far lefts utopia where bad choices will never have bad results.
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