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Old 07-03-2013, 15:30   #1
Infidel4life11
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Are you "playing" at self-defense and posers. By Paul Markel

So today as I set out for some pistol training I came across a few articles I thought were a good read and some things to think about.

http://www.studentofthegun.com/blog/...se-part-1.html

http://www.studentofthegun.com/blog/...se-part-2.html

http://www.studentofthegun.com/sotg-blog.html

Be safe this weekend. Don't make excuses not to train.
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Old 07-03-2013, 15:35   #2
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good read.
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Old 07-04-2013, 16:54   #3
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I think the same thing about people who carry, but have not seriously worked on fast draw. I can start chamber empty and still beat most of them to the hit. So who is being foolish,then? Me with the empty chamber, or them not working on fast draw, which can be done with just fine with nothing more than dryfire and airsoft.
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Old 07-04-2013, 16:59   #4
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anyone who hasn't put in many thousands of rds and scores of hours at realistic practice is just kidding himself, too. They aint ready to shove the muzzle up under the attacker's chin and blow his brains all over themselves, which is what the reality often entails. Just ask George zimmerman how quickly an unarmed guy can turn the tables on you! What they are all counting upon is that 90% of the time, it's not necessary to shoot the attacker at all.
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Old 07-04-2013, 17:04   #5
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yeah, yeah, we all have killed so many people in desperate gun battles, with pistols, and have so much "experience", right? I've pointed guns at people 5x in my life, and you know what? they FROZE in their tracks when I yelled at them to do so. :-) it takes TIME to fire shots, much less get hits. What is your attacker doing while you do all that missing,hmmm? Is granny going to carry that 1911? If not, what good is it to her? I think that a $60 Marlin Glenfield is what woiuld do Granny the most "good", (ie, false peace of mind) without doing in her bank account, and maybe (in normal ammo situations) letting her actually enjoy getting in the practice needed to feel confident with her gun, when she's under great stress. You really "think" that she's going to shoot a glock enough to feel that way?
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Old 07-04-2013, 17:08   #6
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Originally Posted by kussor View Post
yeah, yeah, we all have killed so many people in desperate gun battles, with pistols, and have so much "experience", right? I've pointed guns at people 5x in my life, and you know what? they FROZE in their tracks when I yelled at them to do so. :-) it takes TIME to fire shots, much less get hits. What is your attacker doing while you do all that missing,hmmm? Is granny going to carry that 1911? If not, what good is it to her? I think that a $60 Marlin Glenfield is what woiuld do Granny the most "good", (ie, false peace of mind) without doing in her bank account, and maybe (in normal ammo situations) letting her actually enjoy getting in the practice needed to feel confident with her gun, when she's under great stress. You really "think" that she's going to shoot a glock enough to feel that way?
What were these people up to when you had to pull a gun on them?
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Old 07-08-2013, 21:59   #7
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I used to shoot "El Presedete" (sp) with cover garmet/mag in covered pouch. Kinda miss having access to equipment/training where we could do that and other (useable) skills tests.

BTW you can do draw practice. At home, for no cost. Unload gun, remove ammo from room, check gun is unloaded, when you decide to quit.... QUIT. Some suggest saying verbally. "I am done, the gun is now LOADED, Don't be a idiot t he gun is LOADED...."
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:42   #8
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Originally Posted by kussor View Post
I think the same thing about people who carry, but have not seriously worked on fast draw. I can start chamber empty and still beat most of them to the hit. So who is being foolish,then? Me with the empty chamber, or them not working on fast draw, which can be done with just fine with nothing more than dryfire and airsoft.
If you have pointed a gun at people five times in your life I am shocked that you carry an unloaded gun. How are you going to rack that slide in the middle of a hand to hand brawl?
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Old 07-11-2013, 04:24   #9
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Originally Posted by kussor View Post
I think the same thing about people who carry, but have not seriously worked on fast draw. I can start chamber empty and still beat most of them to the hit. So who is being foolish,then? Me with the empty chamber, or them not working on fast draw, which can be done with just fine with nothing more than dryfire and airsoft.
I'd say YOU are being silly.

Why?

You claim to have practiced with a gun until your skill level lets you draw, chamber and fire faster than most can draw and fire. so:
A. You think a fast draw is important
B. You claim a high skill level with a gun
C. you could obviously draw and pull the trigger faster than you can draw, chamber and pull the trigger
But in spite of all of that, you have so little confidence with a gun you won't carry it with a round chambered.

That is silly.
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Old 07-19-2013, 16:26   #10
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I'd say YOU are being silly.

Why?

You claim to have practiced with a gun until your skill level lets you draw, chamber and fire faster than most can draw and fire. so:
A. You think a fast draw is important
B. You claim a high skill level with a gun
C. you could obviously draw and pull the trigger faster than you can draw, chamber and pull the trigger
But in spite of all of that, you have so little confidence with a gun you won't carry it with a round chambered.
What does one do if the non-shooting hand is occupied with fending off the attacker as the draw is made? Kinda hard to rack in the round in the middle of a fight.
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Old 07-19-2013, 16:42   #11
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I dont carry with one in the pipe. I see why most would, but personally I believe its unsafe. In my experience the attackers dont let you know that their going to mug you. It worries me that if the gun on my hip is found or seen in the process he may take it. I'm still in control if he takes my weapon providing he grabs it and assumes its loaded. Next, if the danger is apparent and the attacker makes it known he's going to attempt to take your crap, draw, drop the safety and act like its loaded. Would you call my bluff with a .40 S&W pointed at your chest?
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Old 07-19-2013, 17:57   #12
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Originally Posted by Hygun View Post
I dont carry with one in the pipe. I see why most would, but personally I believe its unsafe. In my experience the attackers dont let you know that their going to mug you. It worries me that if the gun on my hip is found or seen in the process he may take it. I'm still in control if he takes my weapon providing he grabs it and assumes its loaded. Next, if the danger is apparent and the attacker makes it known he's going to attempt to take your crap, draw, drop the safety and act like its loaded. Would you call my bluff with a .40 S&W pointed at your chest?
You make a WHOLE LOTTA assumptions, most of which are wrong in my opinion.
First, you assume you will be free and clear and will be able to draw.

2nd, you assume the other guy is unarmed, apparently.

3rd. You assume that there is only one attacker.

4th. You assume someone will not attack if you can get the draw on them. That is true for many bad guys, but yes, a street fighter will attack, probably with a knife, (I suspect he will be within 9 feet of you or less), and will cut you to ribbons unless you are prepared to go hand to hand in a manner that allows you to get the gun into play, but you will not be able to do so with an empty chamber unless you want to use it as an impact weapon. (Watch the Dog Brothers "Die Less Often" DVD it is a real eye-opener). Don't tell me that such an attack is not realistic, because I have been to training classes wherein I have closed upon and disarmed someone form 10 feet away and was never hit.

5th. The bad guy picked you because he thought of you as helpless prey; thus, he thinks you are unarmed. This means that he cannot go after a weapon he does not know is there. If you are worried about weapons retention, get a good retention holster. If you open carry, a strong retention holster is a must.

6th. If the danger is apparent, why are you still there? The Nike withdrawal is always best, if available.

You must ambush the ambusher. Explode off the X, draw your weapon, and fire before he realizes that you have moved and tries to react to where you have gone. You cannot do that with an empty chamber very quickly.

If you are grappling, or fending off the attacker with your off-hand, whether standing or on the ground, you will only have one hand available to retrieve your weapon if you fear death or great bodily harm. Without one in the pipe, your firearm is only an impact weapon. Every law enforcement agency I am aware of in the U.S. carries with one in the pipe. It is safe to do so. Israeli carry (empty chamber) works in a military format, but not in a civilian/officer on the street scenario, IMHO.

You apparently don't trust your firearm to be safe when "on safe". I would recommend that you buy some snap caps, and carry your firearm around with one in the chamber. At the end of the day (or week) see if the snap cap was ever struck. If you are afraid of a negligent discharge on the draw, practice with a snap cap in the chamber and snap caps in the mag. With my firearms (Smith M&P, Kahr, and Glock), I have never found the firing pin forward in the holster, and I have never had a ND on presentation of the weapon from the holster. I am a normal guy on the street, not a LEO, not a competition shooter, etc.

To answer your final question, would I call your bluff with the gun pointed at my chest? Yes. At bad guy robbery distances, I would take your gun, break your trigger finger while doing it, beat you with it, and then shoot you if necessary - all it took was a little training. If you are holding at retention, I would be off the X and would have slashed your throat (assuming I was a knife-carrying robber) by the time you could move your hand over to rack the slide.

Range training is not real. We do not get to (nor would we want to) square off with the bad guy and have a shoot-out. He will be moving, you will be moving, and we may find out the fight is on when we find ourselves face down on the sidewalk with a bloody nose from a bushwhack attack. (Force on Force training with AirSoft pistols is eye-opening.)

It is my fervent prayer that I never am in a life and death situation that requires me to discharge my firearm at another human being. But I will tell you, that if deadly force is justified by the circumstances, it will be deadly force that will be applied. Bluffing is for poker, not real life and death situations.
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Last edited by Riz58; 07-19-2013 at 18:01..
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Old 07-20-2013, 21:50   #13
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Assuming that my several years of Brazilian jujitsu is out the window and Also the fact that if an attacker can cover 21 feet before you can present your weapon and fire an accurate shot to stop the attack, because you dont need to kill an innocent person with a stray bullet. I will assume your argument is justifiable. The fact I dont have a round racked is for safety purposes, for example the unattended 6 year old child in the checkout line at Walmart that gets confused as to who you are and grabs at your waistband/gun because he thinks your his dad. Look, I carry the firearm for situations that call for one and outside of that, I dont need it. I have been attacked by a man with a knife and a want to take my life. This man was disarmed and beaten and arrested when the police arrived.
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Old 07-20-2013, 22:04   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hygun View Post
Assuming that my several years of Brazilian jujitsu is out the window and Also the fact that if an attacker can cover 21 feet before you can present your weapon and fire an accurate shot to stop the attack, because you dont need to kill an innocent person with a stray bullet. I will assume your argument is justifiable. The fact I dont have a round racked is for safety purposes, for example the unattended 6 year old child in the checkout line at Walmart that gets confused as to who you are and grabs at your waistband/gun because he thinks your his dad. Look, I carry the firearm for situations that call for one and outside of that, I dont need it. I have been attacked by a man with a knife and a want to take my life. This man was disarmed and beaten and arrested when the police arrived.
It has been shown that an attacker can easily cover 21 feet before a gun can be drawn and the trigger pulled. If you add to that the time necessary to rack a round you are putting yourself at a further disadvantage.

You might want to look up the Tueller drill for further information.
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Old 07-20-2013, 22:48   #15
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Ultra, that's where my other skill sets come in handy. I was using that to counter point the last guy that posted.
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Old 07-20-2013, 22:53   #16
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Originally Posted by Riz58 View Post
You make a WHOLE LOTTA assumptions, most of which are wrong in my opinion.
First, you assume you will be free and clear and will be able to draw.

2nd, you assume the other guy is unarmed, apparently.

3rd. You assume that there is only one attacker.

4th. You assume someone will not attack if you can get the draw on them. That is true for many bad guys, but yes, a street fighter will attack, probably with a knife, (I suspect he will be within 9 feet of you or less), and will cut you to ribbons unless you are prepared to go hand to hand in a manner that allows you to get the gun into play, but you will not be able to do so with an empty chamber unless you want to use it as an impact weapon. (Watch the Dog Brothers "Die Less Often" DVD it is a real eye-opener). Don't tell me that such an attack is not realistic, because I have been to training classes wherein I have closed upon and disarmed someone form 10 feet away and was never hit.

5th. The bad guy picked you because he thought of you as helpless prey; thus, he thinks you are unarmed. This means that he cannot go after a weapon he does not know is there. If you are worried about weapons retention, get a good retention holster. If you open carry, a strong retention holster is a must.

6th. If the danger is apparent, why are you still there? The Nike withdrawal is always best, if available.

You must ambush the ambusher. Explode off the X, draw your weapon, and fire before he realizes that you have moved and tries to react to where you have gone. You cannot do that with an empty chamber very quickly.

If you are grappling, or fending off the attacker with your off-hand, whether standing or on the ground, you will only have one hand available to retrieve your weapon if you fear death or great bodily harm. Without one in the pipe, your firearm is only an impact weapon. Every law enforcement agency I am aware of in the U.S. carries with one in the pipe. It is safe to do so. Israeli carry (empty chamber) works in a military format, but not in a civilian/officer on the street scenario, IMHO.

You apparently don't trust your firearm to be safe when "on safe". I would recommend that you buy some snap caps, and carry your firearm around with one in the chamber. At the end of the day (or week) see if the snap cap was ever struck. If you are afraid of a negligent discharge on the draw, practice with a snap cap in the chamber and snap caps in the mag. With my firearms (Smith M&P, Kahr, and Glock), I have never found the firing pin forward in the holster, and I have never had a ND on presentation of the weapon from the holster. I am a normal guy on the street, not a LEO, not a competition shooter, etc.

To answer your final question, would I call your bluff with the gun pointed at my chest? Yes. At bad guy robbery distances, I would take your gun, break your trigger finger while doing it, beat you with it, and then shoot you if necessary - all it took was a little training. If you are holding at retention, I would be off the X and would have slashed your throat (assuming I was a knife-carrying robber) by the time you could move your hand over to rack the slide.

Range training is not real. We do not get to (nor would we want to) square off with the bad guy and have a shoot-out. He will be moving, you will be moving, and we may find out the fight is on when we find ourselves face down on the sidewalk with a bloody nose from a bushwhack attack. (Force on Force training with AirSoft pistols is eye-opening.)

It is my fervent prayer that I never am in a life and death situation that requires me to discharge my firearm at another human being. But I will tell you, that if deadly force is justified by the circumstances, it will be deadly force that will be applied. Bluffing is for poker, not real life and death situations.
Excellent post.



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Old 07-20-2013, 22:55   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hygun View Post
I dont carry with one in the pipe. I see why most would, but personally I believe its unsafe. In my experience the attackers dont let you know that their going to mug you. It worries me that if the gun on my hip is found or seen in the process he may take it. I'm still in control if he takes my weapon providing he grabs it and assumes its loaded. Next, if the danger is apparent and the attacker makes it known he's going to attempt to take your crap, draw, drop the safety and act like its loaded. Would you call my bluff with a .40 S&W pointed at your chest?
ever heard of weapon retention defense?
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Old 07-21-2013, 00:57   #18
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On a serious note, if it's so easy to take a loaded gun from someone, why not just take it right back?

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Old 07-21-2013, 18:19   #19
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Originally Posted by Hygun View Post
Assuming that my several years of Brazilian jujitsu is out the window and Also the fact that if an attacker can cover 21 feet before you can present your weapon and fire an accurate shot to stop the attack, because you dont need to kill an innocent person with a stray bullet. I will assume your argument is justifiable. The fact I dont have a round racked is for safety purposes, for example the unattended 6 year old child in the checkout line at Walmart that gets confused as to who you are and grabs at your waistband/gun because he thinks your his dad. Look, I carry the firearm for situations that call for one and outside of that, I dont need it. I have been attacked by a man with a knife and a want to take my life. This man was disarmed and beaten and arrested when the police arrived.
Your hand to hand skills sound excellent, but it does not avoid the issue that the gun is nothing but a hammer in a CQB situation without a round in the chamber. I suspect when you were going hand to hand with a knife wielder, you wish you had a firearm ready to go and use during the fight. I would.

The 6 year old example does not work - first, if concealed, he does not know you have a weapon; second, if he sees it, he should not be able to grab it and take it. My holsters all have trigger guards and retention protection. Your firearm apparently has a manual safety as well. Is carrying without a round in the chamber "more safe"? Maybe, but not for you. My modern firearm will not discharge unless the trigger is pulled, and with the most basic of care, that will not happen by accident.
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Old 07-21-2013, 18:42   #20
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Napoleon Dynamite Skills (Haxing skills) - YouTube

On a serious note, if it's so easy to take a loaded gun from someone, why not just take it right back?


yeah!
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