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Old 07-08-2013, 20:28   #41
NEOH212
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Originally Posted by dkf View Post
The Federal HST has a more rounded nose than some other jhp. They usually feed very well. Worth picking up a box or two to try.
They've fed in everything I've tried them in so far. It's great ammo for sure.
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:59   #42
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Very well said. I've crono'd several loads in .45 from various barrel lengths and the velocity loss between them weren't enough to loose sleep over. In my crude ballistics testing and some that was scientific (some what) I've concluded the same thing about short barrel ammo. It isn't necessary.

All the good SD ammo has enough arse behind it to get the job done and then some.
Agreed.

With the .45 acp , 230 grain, a few fps more won't turn a bad shot into a good one and lack of a few fps won't turn a good shot into a bad one.

Last edited by countrygun; 07-08-2013 at 21:00..
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Old 07-08-2013, 22:11   #43
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Wow what a complete group of morons. Can not read or comprehend. there are no...zero..magic bullets. Every single manufacturer on the planet has a fail video some where on the net. The best most consistent terminal ballistics have failed at some point. Yes some have better terminal balistics than others. Can not deny that. You are hoping that you do not have a bad batch.
I know why one would make the argument that a shot through the anus may not be as effective. Although in many of your cases it will work just fine. Brain shot.
People stop drinking the coolaid. You have little control over where the shot will take place. 10" of penetration is not great but certainly nothing to scoff at and as stated before people ***** and moan at over penetration or under. Handguns suck at delivering devastating energy to human targets compared to rifles. Please get it through your heads.... A hand gun is a trade off. Magic Golddots that may or may not function are worthless.
A round that functions in the gun is better. I was not advocating the use of Ball ammo. If it functions flawlessly then use it. People die from it all the time. Done...
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Old 07-08-2013, 22:14   #44
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Wow what a complete group of morons. Can not read or comprehend. there are no...zero..magic bullets. Every single manufacturer on the planet has a fail video some where on the net. The best most consistent terminal ballistics have failed at some point. Yes some have better terminal balistics than others. Can not deny that. You are hoping that you do not have a bad batch.
I know why one would make the argument that a shot through the anus may not be as effective. Although in many of your cases it will work just fine. Brain shot.
People stop drinking the coolaid. You have little control over where the shot will take place. 10" of penetration is not great but certainly nothing to scoff at and as stated before people ***** and moan at over penetration or under. Handguns suck at delivering devastating energy to human targets compared to rifles. Please get it through your heads.... A hand gun is a trade off.
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Old 07-08-2013, 22:53   #45
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
...

And your 9mm +P+ and .357 magnum example is no good. They have improved even those bullet designs to get to 12"+ nowadays, realizing that the old penetration performance of those rounds wasn't cutting it...

That's simply not true. BPLE as well as .357 Mag. 125 gr. worked just fine for penetration.


Quote:
...PENETRATION is the most important aspect of terminal ballistics. This is fact.

If that were true we'd all carry ball ammo. Penetration is obviously a factor, that's a given. However, many times things are far more complicated and we don't have the luxury of excess time for someone to merely bleed out, i.e., exsanguination. However, let's not turn this into another Facklerite vs. Marshall supporters thread.
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Old 07-09-2013, 00:04   #46
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That's simply not true. BPLE as well as .357 Mag. 125 gr. worked just fine for penetration.

If that were true we'd all carry ball ammo. Penetration is obviously a factor, that's a given. However, many times things are far more complicated and we don't have the luxury of excess time for someone to merely bleed out, i.e., exsanguination. However, let's not turn this into another Facklerite vs. Marshall supporters thread.
Wasn't talking about specific bullet designs, just bullet designs in general. Hot, light-for-caliber 9mm and .357 magnum loads tend to penetrate a little better today because of improved bullet design.

And I wasn't saying penetration is the ONLY factor, just the most IMPORTANT one. And yes, if it were the case that all hollow points only penetrated 9" or less, I would be carrying FMJ. All I am saying is that any round, no matter how big or fast, is worthless if it can't penetrate to vitals. A kill shot with a .22LR is better than a flesh would with .44 magnum. I am not one of those idiots who argues for .22LR, but you know what I mean.

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:03   #47
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Once again WinterWizard, we can play your scenario games all day long....
We sure can. Because scenarios where adequate penetration is needed will win the vast majority of times over scenarios where shallow penetration is needed.

All scenarios where "I have to shoot an attacker when loved ones or innocent bystanders are standing behind" are dumb. Because ANY hollow point can fail to expand and become an FMJ and pass through. Most times it will be a miss that is the problem.

A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:45   #48
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
...A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

You're smart enough to realize that this oft presented 12" number is merely arbitrary. You're thinking it's something magical like the sound barrier when it's not. You're putting far more faith in the FBI than they deserve. The 12" decision was merely a scapegoat for bad tactics as anyone who has worked for/with a Gov't Agency quickly realizes their complete & utter failure for introspection, let alone admission of error.
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Old 07-10-2013, 00:24   #49
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
All scenarios where "I have to shoot an attacker when loved ones or innocent bystanders are standing behind" are dumb. Because ANY hollow point can fail to expand and become an FMJ and pass through. Most times it will be a miss that is the problem.
So what you're saying is that those who choose SD loads that present less danger of overpenetration are "dumb"? That must mean that those who choose loads that have a higher probability of overpenetrating an attacker (those who follow the trends of the FBI and the jello shooters with their "12 inch minimum penetration is good and over 12 inches is even better" attitude) must be "smart"?

As for missed shots being a hazard, yes, that is true. But this is a whole different subject for another time.

Quote:
A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.
As mentioned before, two of the best street proven manstoppers, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads fail to meet the FBI's standard 12" minimum penetration. Are these "crap" rounds?

Here's what Mas Ayoob has written about these two loads:

9mm

"For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.
These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them."

357Mag:

"One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.
It seems to be an argument akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The Winchester 125-grain Magnum load does not have either of those features, but worked every bit as well for such departments as the Maine State Police when they carried .357 revolvers.
This round tends to create a wound channel that is nine to 11 inches deep, but very wide, with tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track. It also has a nasty muzzle blast and pretty sharp recoil. The great combat shooting trainer and champion, Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree.
When departments such as City of Indianapolis Police Department, and the state troopers of Kentucky and Indiana issued that load, there were literally tons of bad guys shot with 125-grain Magnums, and they tended to go down “right now.” Texas Department of Public Safety personnel were known to refer to this round’s “lightning bolt effect,” and I knew Kentucky troopers who called it 'the magic bullet.'"

http://www.tactical-life.com/exclusi...om-the-street/

After the 1986 FBI fiasco, the FBI's 9mm "darling" load was the Win 147JHP subsonic. This met their arbitrary 12" min penetration. It often exceeded this to a fault of overpenetrating, often with minimal or erratic expansion in real human tissue (unlike the picture-perfect expansion they get when shooting blocks of gel) and sometimes with tragic results. Perps often had to be shot multiple times to incapacitate them with these subsonic loads. To paraphrase Mas from an article he wrote about the original deep penetrating 9mm 147JHP subsonics that were in use by LEO's all across this country; he had seen more overpenetrations with these loads, from all manufacturers, than not.

Conscientious, knowledgeable and properly trained gun carriers will choose appropriate SD loads that have the best probability of stopping (not KILLING as some fools believe) an attacker with the least amount of shots needed to be fired and with the LEAST probability of overpenetrating said attacker.

Legal citizen gun carriers don't need "bonded" or deep penetrating bullets that will get 12"+ after shooting thru a windshield or car door since such encounters are so rare. It's an anomaly. Ammo that has a high probability of overpenetrating an attacker is a huge legal and criminal liability for gun carriers. Why do you think that the use of FMJ or solid bullets in service calibers for SD is so thoroughly damned?

Once again, deep bullet penetration is not "all that" when it comes to personal SD ammo.
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Old 07-10-2013, 00:32   #50
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard
...A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
You're smart enough to realize that this oft presented 12" number is merely arbitrary. You're thinking it's something magical like the sound barrier when it's not. You're putting far more faith in the FBI than they deserve. The 12" decision was merely a scapegoat for bad tactics as anyone who has worked for/with a Gov't Agency quickly realizes their complete & utter failure for introspection, let alone admission of error.
Well said my friend!
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Old 07-10-2013, 00:47   #51
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
You're smart enough to realize that this oft presented 12" number is merely arbitrary. You're thinking it's something magical like the sound barrier when it's not. You're putting far more faith in the FBI than they deserve. The 12" decision was merely a scapegoat for bad tactics as anyone who has worked for/with a Gov't Agency quickly realizes their complete & utter failure for introspection, let alone admission of error.
It's one I happen to agree with. I actually want more, around 15", which is why I agree with their 12" "mimimum." I don't worry about overpenetration. I worry about missing. If an expanded hollow point gets through the body, it's not going to have much left. Nor would I take a shot where a loved one is directly behind an attacker - I just wouldn't do it.

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Old 07-10-2013, 00:54   #52
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
As mentioned before, two of the best street proven manstoppers, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads fail to meet the FBI's standard 12" minimum penetration. Are these "crap" rounds?
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are crap, but there are better loads nowadays - loads that deliver as much energy, expand just as much and penetrate MORE.

If you had to choose between a round that penetrates 10", delivers 450 ft-lbs of energy and expands to .60" OR a round that penetrates 13", delivers 450 ft-lbs of energy and expands to .60", which one would you choose?

The only thing Mas Ayoob confirms is that the old-school hollow point designs of decades past were indeed effective. The hollow points designs of today are a little more so.

But use whatever load you want, bro. I care very little.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 07-10-2013 at 00:55..
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:01   #53
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So there it is, gentleman. (Tiro and Merk). I value penetration more than you guys, it seems.

Sorry to disagree, but we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:09   #54
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What's interesting is, so many people are jumping in on the 12" standard.

Other federal agencies have a different standard. IIRC ICE. Border patrol has used light and fast loads for years with good results, and they shoot more bad guys the the FBI does. The border patrol carries the Remington 155gr HP.

The Illinois state police carried the winchester 115gr +p+ load for years, as well as many others with excellent results.

Excellent street credentials from many of the light and fast loads.

As far as the corbon loading is concerned, while I don't think its the best load going, it serves a purpose.

Corbon tests all of their loadings, and its no secret how they perform. If you have any questions, TeamCorbon is a member of the forum. Just ask him.

I just think its funny everyone talking about 12 inches of penetration like its the only standard out there.

That being said, determine your needs, and wants and buy accordingly. We have some amazing loads out there now.

Also, beware of the flavor of the month crowd. When i first stated posting here, Gold Dots were all the rage. Then it was Ranger Ts. Right now it seems to be the HST.

They are all good rounds.

Tnoutdoors9 has some great videos on YouTube. Check him out. Also a GT member.

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:28   #55
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
It's one I happen to agree with. I actually want more, around 15", which is why I agree with their 12" "mimimum."
With the increase in the percentage of over-weight people these days and/or the possibility of having to shoot through an assailant's upraised arm(s), this makes good sense.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:19   #56
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Sorry you went to all that trouble.

The image in post # 3 is more convincing.
If you read what I wrote you will see that I was specifically saying that the PowerBall was not perfect but that the principle solved a major problem of hollow point bullets. In doing so it might introduce a problem shooting through car body work, but for civilians that is a rare problem to have to deal with.

Do I think that shedding a jacket is unimportant? No, but neither is it a disaster as long as the lead of the bullet holds together. But that is a problem with CorBon's individual design and manufacture and not with the principle.

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Old 07-10-2013, 13:44   #57
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So what you're saying is that those who choose SD loads that present less danger of overpenetration are "dumb"? That must mean that those who choose loads that have a higher probability of overpenetrating an attacker (those who follow the trends of the FBI and the jello shooters with their "12 inch minimum penetration is good and over 12 inches is even better" attitude) must be "smart"?

As for missed shots being a hazard, yes, that is true. But this is a whole different subject for another time.



As mentioned before, two of the best street proven manstoppers, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads fail to meet the FBI's standard 12" minimum penetration. Are these "crap" rounds?

Here's what Mas Ayoob has written about these two loads:

9mm

"For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.
These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them."

357Mag:

"One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.
It seems to be an argument akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The Winchester 125-grain Magnum load does not have either of those features, but worked every bit as well for such departments as the Maine State Police when they carried .357 revolvers.
This round tends to create a wound channel that is nine to 11 inches deep, but very wide, with tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track. It also has a nasty muzzle blast and pretty sharp recoil. The great combat shooting trainer and champion, Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree.
When departments such as City of Indianapolis Police Department, and the state troopers of Kentucky and Indiana issued that load, there were literally tons of bad guys shot with 125-grain Magnums, and they tended to go down “right now.” Texas Department of Public Safety personnel were known to refer to this round’s “lightning bolt effect,” and I knew Kentucky troopers who called it 'the magic bullet.'"

http://www.tactical-life.com/exclusi...om-the-street/

After the 1986 FBI fiasco, the FBI's 9mm "darling" load was the Win 147JHP subsonic. This met their arbitrary 12" min penetration. It often exceeded this to a fault of overpenetrating, often with minimal or erratic expansion in real human tissue (unlike the picture-perfect expansion they get when shooting blocks of gel) and sometimes with tragic results. Perps often had to be shot multiple times to incapacitate them with these subsonic loads. To paraphrase Mas from an article he wrote about the original deep penetrating 9mm 147JHP subsonics that were in use by LEO's all across this country; he had seen more overpenetrations with these loads, from all manufacturers, than not.

Conscientious, knowledgeable and properly trained gun carriers will choose appropriate SD loads that have the best probability of stopping (not KILLING as some fools believe) an attacker with the least amount of shots needed to be fired and with the LEAST probability of overpenetrating said attacker.

Legal citizen gun carriers don't need "bonded" or deep penetrating bullets that will get 12"+ after shooting thru a windshield or car door since such encounters are so rare. It's an anomaly. Ammo that has a high probability of overpenetrating an attacker is a huge legal and criminal liability for gun carriers. Why do you think that the use of FMJ or solid bullets in service calibers for SD is so thoroughly damned?

Once again, deep bullet penetration is not "all that" when it comes to personal SD ammo.
Merkavaboy,
Thank you for that.

WinterWizard,
The above is the closest you can get to empirical evidence and it is contrary to your firmly held opinion. Shooting someone in self defense is always subject to random variations like a bullet going through an arm first or hitting a leather wallet. Sometimes it has the added problem of shooting through car bodywork, but most of the time we want what is best on average.

Even back in the day of old fashioned 9mm and .357 Magnum hollow points The performance of the 115gn 9BPLE was considered outstanding over many many shootings - its average was good. Likewise the 125gn 357 Magnum. Both had relatively low penetration by your standards and those of the FBI. Both produced wound channels that were, "very wide, with tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track" According to Mas Ayoob. Groups of fighting men do not come to refer to those cartridges as the "magic bullet" and the "lightening bolt effect" by chance. No more did New York come to refer to their 147gn 9mm as "the widow maker" by chance either - it was the LEOs' widows they were referring to rather than the felons'!

The tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track that Ayoob mentions is cause by the rapid release of the bullet's KE. Since there is a limit to the KE it can be used to create that wide zone of damage or a narrower zone with greater penetration. You can't have both and so if modern bullets have more penetration and wider expansion they have to be heavier at a lower speed. I don't think that was what you meant, but that is the way it has to be. Damage done is not equal to depth of penetration multiplied by expanded frontal area!

The FBI's dogmatic and unscientific approach has done far too many LEOs a grave disservice and you are perpetuating an explanation of wounding effects relative to rapid incapacitation which does not have a leg to stand on. It does not fit with handgun hunting. It does not fit with the experience of various past law agencies. Bleed out as a method of incapacitation, even when major arteries, the liver or the heart itself is hit, bleed out is only of defensive value if you are safe from the BG's attack for the next 15 seconds to half an hour - that is the lesson that was not learned from the Miami Shootout.

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Old 07-10-2013, 15:02   #58
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Does anyone else find it ironic that George Zimmerman used a generic European JHP (S&B) and that it fragmented into several pieces yet worked well? Naturally, being a heart shot helped tremendously.

Appears he merely used what was available and it worked perfectly probably never giving the matter a second thought. The irony.
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Old 07-10-2013, 16:00   #59
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It's one I happen to agree with. I actually want more, around 15", which is why I agree with their 12" "mimimum." I don't worry about overpenetration. I worry about missing. If an expanded hollow point gets through the body, it's not going to have much left. Nor would I take a shot where a loved one is directly behind an attacker - I just wouldn't do it.

I completely whole heartly agree amigo !


I believe the "multitude" of reasons should be obvious...







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Old 07-10-2013, 16:32   #60
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Originally Posted by English View Post
Merkavaboy,
Thank you for that.

WinterWizard,
The above is the closest you can get to empirical evidence and it is contrary to your firmly held opinion. Shooting someone in self defense is always subject to random variations like a bullet going through an arm first or hitting a leather wallet. Sometimes it has the added problem of shooting through car bodywork, but most of the time we want what is best on average.

Even back in the day of old fashioned 9mm and .357 Magnum hollow points The performance of the 115gn 9BPLE was considered outstanding over many many shootings - its average was good. Likewise the 125gn 357 Magnum. Both had relatively low penetration by your standards and those of the FBI. Both produced wound channels that were, "very wide, with tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track" According to Mas Ayoob. Groups of fighting men do not come to refer to those cartridges as the "magic bullet" and the "lightening bolt effect" by chance. No more did New York come to refer to their 147gn 9mm as "the widow maker" by chance either - it was the LEOs' widows they were referring to rather than the felons'!

The tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track that Ayoob mentions is cause by the rapid release of the bullet's KE. Since there is a limit to the KE it can be used to create that wide zone of damage or a narrower zone with greater penetration. You can't have both and so if modern bullets have more penetration and wider expansion they have to be heavier at a lower speed. I don't think that was what you meant, but that is the way it has to be. Damage done is not equal to depth of penetration multiplied by expanded frontal area!

The FBI's dogmatic and unscientific approach has done far too many LEOs a grave disservice and you are perpetuating an explanation of wounding effects relative to rapid incapacitation which does not have a leg to stand on. It does not fit with handgun hunting. It does not fit with the experience of various past law agencies. Bleed out as a method of incapacitation, even when major arteries, the liver or the heart itself is hit, bleed out is only of defensive value if you are safe from the BG's attack for the next 15 seconds to half an hour - that is the lesson that was not learned from the Miami Shootout.

English
Thanks for your lengthy rebuttal, but I did not come to my conclusions or opinions based on FBI testing. Other people in this thread just assumed that I am parroting FBI protocols. I have not read any of them. I have only heard of the 12" standard from reading gun forums for years and various articles, of course. It is something I agree with.

Modern bullet designs have velocity (in +P), massive expansion, produce amazing wound channels in gel, and penetrate more than adequately. You will never get me to agree that the same end results with the exception of less penetration is somehow better. Sorry, not going to happen.

But like I said, we will have to agree to disagree.
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