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Old 07-08-2013, 09:18   #26
Merkavaboy
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
Yet another fool who thinks it's always going to be a frontal chest shot on an attacker who is not holding his arms up and is wearing only a t-shirt.

Scenario #1: A large man who is attacking you. He is also wearing a leather jacket. Say he is coming at you with a knife or weapon of some kind. You only have time to get one or two shots off before he is on top of you. So maybe you have to shoot through his raised arm, which is covering the vital zone. That bullet has to go through two sides of a leather jacket, two sides of a shirt, about 5 inches of forearm, maybe bone... How much penetration is left in your 9-10" Pow'r Ball after that? Maybe 3-4"? Are you going to trust that to reach the heart and take this guy out?

Scenario #2: A large man is attacking a loved one. You have to make a side shot. Again, do you trust your 9-10" of penetration to get through his arm, jacket and shirt (both sides) and into his torso from the side, and into his vitals. Good luck with this one, also.

Scenario #3: An attacker approaches your car window. He holds a knife to your throat or a gun to your head. You have to draw and potentially shoot through the door to stop him. Do you trust your Pow'r Ball then?

These are just three obvious ones. There are countless others.

PENETRATION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN BALLISTICS. If you don't know or appreciate this, maybe you should take your "horse crap" to the mall ninja forums. 12" is minimum. 13-15" is better. 15-18" is preferred. Most common handgun calibers are woefully underpowered to begin with. Take away their penetrating ability and you might as well be throwing stones.
Scenario #1: You get attacked by a thin emaciated crack or meth head wearing a cotton hoodie and brandishing a weapon and in the background behind the attacker there's a park full of children and mothers pushing their babies in strollers.

Scenario #2: You're with your wife or daughter and a petite female transient sitting on the sidewalk jumps up and attacks her with a knife because she refused to give the transient a dollar. Your only saving shot is a torso shot from behind the attacker with your wife or daughter directly in the path of your bullet(s).

Scenario #3: You're in line at the check-out counter of a Stop-n-Rob or a bank and a robber comes in wearing full body armor and starts shooting people and you're unable to escape with your wife and kids.

In Scenario's #1-2 the use of deep penetrating "FBI used and approved" heavy weight bonded or all-copper load in any caliber has an extreme chance of overpenetrating and causing injury or death to an innocent person. And in Scenario #3, nothing short of AP ammo will get the job done.

We can play your scenario games all day and not get anywhere fast.

Depth of penetration with SD handgun ammo is not the be-all-end-all of fight stopping ability, nor is shooting through barriers or obstructing limbs of an attacker. If this were true than there would be no need for modern JHP bullets and FMJ, JSP, solid lead and maybe even armor piercing bullets (for the paranoids) would be the norm in everyones' SD handguns.

Arguably the two most proven loads that have been documented in actual shootings are the .357 Mag 125JHP and the 9mm 115JHP+P+ used for years by LE and citizens alike. Yet both of these loads FAIL to pass the FBI's ballistic protocols with on average only 10 inches (+/-) penetration in ballistic gel. Inconceiveable that any SD load that doesn't penetrate at least a minimum of 12-16" of ballistic gel can be capable of stopping an attacker, any attacker! Why do you say that? Because the FBI, the "ballistic experts", the gello and water jug shooters who post videos on YouTube and the Internet gurus tell us so!
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:28   #27
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Scenario #1: You...
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:14   #28
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Scenario #1: You get attacked by a thin emaciated crack or meth head wearing a cotton hoodie and brandishing a weapon and in the background behind the attacker there's a park full of children and mothers pushing their babies in strollers.

Scenario #2: You're with your wife or daughter and a petite female transient sitting on the sidewalk jumps up and attacks her with a knife because she refused to give the transient a dollar. Your only saving shot is a torso shot from behind the attacker with your wife or daughter directly in the path of your bullet(s).

Scenario #3: You're in line at the check-out counter of a Stop-n-Rob or a bank and a robber comes in wearing full body armor and starts shooting people and you're unable to escape with your wife and kids.

In Scenario's #1-2 the use of deep penetrating "FBI used and approved" heavy weight bonded or all-copper load in any caliber has an extreme chance of overpenetrating and causing injury or death to an innocent person. And in Scenario #3, nothing short of AP ammo will get the job done.

We can play your scenario games all day and not get anywhere fast.

Depth of penetration with SD handgun ammo is not the be-all-end-all of fight stopping ability, nor is shooting through barriers or obstructing limbs of an attacker. If this were true than there would be no need for modern JHP bullets and FMJ, JSP, solid lead and maybe even armor piercing bullets (for the paranoids) would be the norm in everyones' SD handguns.

Arguably the two most proven loads that have been documented in actual shootings are the .357 Mag 125JHP and the 9mm 115JHP+P+ used for years by LE and citizens alike. Yet both of these loads FAIL to pass the FBI's ballistic protocols with on average only 10 inches (+/-) penetration in ballistic gel. Inconceiveable that any SD load that doesn't penetrate at least a minimum of 12-16" of ballistic gel can be capable of stopping an attacker, any attacker! Why do you say that? Because the FBI, the "ballistic experts", the gello and water jug shooters who post videos on YouTube and the Internet gurus tell us so!
Scene #1: If you shoot, you better not miss. And if a hollow point, expands and gets out of the body, it will have almost no energy left. But to shoot in any situation where you don't trust yourself to not miss and hit innocent people beyond is irresponsible. "Be aware of your target and beyond." One of the 4 basic safety rules.

Scene #2: Another irresponsible shot. Adjust your position to get a side shot. Again, "Be aware of your target and beyond."

Scene 3: Okay, what does this have to do with anything? No hollow point is going to help against body armor.

Don't make irresponsible shots. Any hollow point, deep or shallow penetrating, can not open and become an FMJ that will pass through and WILL have energy to harm someone.

And your 9mm +P+ and .357 magnum example is no good. They have improved even those bullet designs to get to 12"+ nowadays, realizing that the old penetration performance of those rounds wasn't cutting it.

Bottom line is you have to worry about missing more than overpenetration.

If you can't get to the vitals, you can't stop an attack, even if you are shooting a bullet the size of walnut. This is not the parroted opinion of "internet experts." It is fact. PENETRATION is the most important aspect of terminal ballistics. This is fact.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 07-08-2013 at 10:22..
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:09   #29
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Here's some really sound advice on the Powwer Ball ammo:

Forget about that gimmicky junk and buy some good street proven ammo.

Very sound advice, indeed. Nice post.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:31   #30
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Well, if the pic I posted doesn't convince anyone, then why would your testimony? An inch of jello caused it to fly apart.



And speaking of jello, it's just a benchmark medium to compare one round to another. 10" of penetration in jello doesn't mean 10" in flesh and bone.


I know my friend, I know... I hear ya...





Thanks Steve !












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Old 07-08-2013, 12:18   #31
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post

Arguably the two most proven loads that have been documented in actual shootings are the .357 Mag 125JHP and the 9mm 115JHP+P+ used for years by LE and citizens alike. Yet both of these loads FAIL to pass the FBI's ballistic protocols with on average only 10 inches (+/-) penetration in ballistic gel. Inconceiveable that any SD load that doesn't penetrate at least a minimum of 12-16" of ballistic gel can be capable of stopping an attacker, any attacker! Why do you say that? Because the FBI, the "ballistic experts", the gello and water jug shooters who post videos on YouTube and the Internet gurus tell us so!
You are making the very common internet error of comparing apples to oranges, specifically ballistic gel testing. You have the cart way in front of the horse.

Ballistic gel is merely a consistent testing medium it does not mimic the behavior of a bullet in the human body in any direct correlation. It is like a "ballistic pendulum" merely a laboratory tool to compare relative performance in a controlled test.

We seriously need to move away from all of the discussion of kitchen treats and how they relate to performance on the street or at least grow up and admit that one type of test in one substance is only a small part of the overall the overall testing procedure and that testing procedure is still a theoretical SWAG when it comes to performance on the street.

The FBI looked at many real shootings, evaluated the real results and then established their "baseline" in part by how the rounds from successful shootings then performed in the testing medium. The FBI then adds to those results characteristics they would like to see "improved" for their mission and training.

Ballistic gel only compares the relative penetration of rounds in ballistic gel. It is nothing more that the old "baffle box" of 1 pine boards that has been updated by the Food network.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:36   #32
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You are making the very common internet error of comparing apples to oranges, specifically ballistic gel testing. You have the cart way in front of the horse.

Ballistic gel is merely a consistent testing medium it does not mimic the behavior of a bullet in the human body in any direct correlation. It is like a "ballistic pendulum" merely a laboratory tool to compare relative performance in a controlled test.

We seriously need to move away from all of the discussion of kitchen treats and how they relate to performance on the street or at least grow up and admit that one type of test in one substance is only a small part of the overall the overall testing procedure and that testing procedure is still a theoretical SWAG when it comes to performance on the street.

The FBI looked at many real shootings, evaluated the real results and then established their "baseline" in part by how the rounds from successful shootings then performed in the testing medium. The FBI then adds to those results characteristics they would like to see "improved" for their mission and training.

Ballistic gel only compares the relative penetration of rounds in ballistic gel. It is nothing more that the old "baffle box" of 1 pine boards that has been updated by the Food network.


Exactly !

Dang good post amigo... Can't add a thing here. Very well said !

I did 'highlight" a few of my favorite 'terms' you phrased here ! ha.




Stay safe !






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Old 07-08-2013, 14:44   #33
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I have tried to resist this, but I am but weak flesh.

The Glaser Safety Slug is a frangible bullet which consists of a metal jacket which contains lead shot. It is designed to break up on impact to produce a very nasty but relatively shallow wound. Animal testing shows it to be able to produce one shot stops under ideal conditions. What it is not good at is hitting an arm first and then producing a rapid stop, but the arm would be taken out of the fight.

Part of what it is designed to do is reduce the risk of shoot throughs when the body is hit or when a wall is hit. When it hits a substantial metal or brick object it is likely to break up and spray shot in a wide number of directions, so the probability of serious injury is reduced but the probability of minor injuries is increased. Like a shot gun, it is quite likely to penetrate partition walls but the shot would then spread out and be slightly less likely to cause serious injury on the other side of the wall.

The Power Ball is completely different. It is designed to overcome the problem of conventional hollow point bullets clogging with clothing or bone and failing to expand. To understand this you have to understand how a hollow point expands. In ballistic gel or unobstructed flesh, the speed of the bullet liquifys the tissue in front of it and creates a high hydrodynamic pressure. That pressure, since it has no escape route except straight ahead applies an equal pressure perpendicular to the surfaces inside the hollow point. That pushes the petals outwards and usually splits them in the process but then their surfaces are closer to facing forwards and they are bent backwards to an extent depending on bullet speed and the toughness of the bullet. If the hollow point is filled with rigid material, such as compressed clothing or rib bone in particular, the hydrodynamic pressure can't get down into the hollow point to force out the petals and the bullet behaves like a solid. In that form it penetrates further but does less damage to the side of its track. It loses the very benefits that hollow point bullets are designed and chosen for!

The power ball gets round this problem by carrying its own liquid. Well, not quite, but it replaces it with a soft rubbery plastic which, when compressed from the front, presses outwards on the petals and opens them regardless of what it is going through. Unlike a conventional hollow point which collapses its petals into no more than a rough nose when fired through metal sheet, the power ball will expand as it hits the metal sheet. In practice, depending on the thickness and strength of the metal it might expand fairly normally, but it will then make a bigger hole and loose more energy than an equivalent hollow point, or it might fold back its petals and remain bigger than an equivalent hollow point. So shooting an attacker through your car door might have a better or worse result depending on initial bullet energy and where you hit your attacker from Power Ball to conventional HP. The conventional HP will almost certainly lose less KE but the Power ball will hit with a bigger frontal area.

The argument about whether it is better to have more penetration at the cost of less damage to the side of track has gone on for a long time but is irrelevant here. More or less what ever happen to a bullet as it hits a leather covered arm before penetrating the chest will be the same between conventional HP and Power Ball except that the Power Ball will expand normally and the conventional HP might clog. If you are devious minded you might gamble on the conventional HP clogging as a design feature to leave it with enough penetration in that circumstance.

That is the theory but how well the power ball behaves in the real world is a matter for the real world and also depends on the quality of its other design factors. Golden Sabre, Gold Dot, Black Talon and others are all conventional HPs but they don't behave quite the same. Similar factors within the Power Ball can make equivalent differences to its performance. In time we might get enough data to make a sensible guess. For now, I would be quite happy carrying Power Ball if I had that opportunity, but I would be happier with it if it had more than a 9x19mm cartridge case behind it.

As a small matter of interest, about half of all shots through the rib cage hit a rib on the way. That will make far less difference to a Power Ball than to conventional HPs.

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Old 07-08-2013, 15:11   #34
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I have tried to resist this, but I am but weak flesh.

The Glaser Safety Slug is a frangible bullet which consists of a metal jacket which contains lead shot. It is designed to break up on impact to produce a very nasty but relatively shallow wound. Animal testing shows it to be able to produce one shot stops under ideal conditions. What it is not good at is hitting an arm first and then producing a rapid stop, but the arm would be taken out of the fight.

Part of what it is designed to do is reduce the risk of shoot throughs when the body is hit or when a wall is hit. When it hits a substantial metal or brick object it is likely to break up and spray shot in a wide number of directions, so the probability of serious injury is reduced but the probability of minor injuries is increased. Like a shot gun, it is quite likely to penetrate partition walls but the shot would then spread out and be slightly less likely to cause serious injury on the other side of the wall.

The Power Ball is completely different. It is designed to overcome the problem of conventional hollow point bullets clogging with clothing or bone and failing to expand. To understand this you have to understand how a hollow point expands. In ballistic gel or unobstructed flesh, the speed of the bullet liquifys the tissue in front of it and creates a high hydrodynamic pressure. That pressure, since it has no escape route except straight ahead applies an equal pressure perpendicular to the surfaces inside the hollow point. That pushes the petals outwards and usually splits them in the process but then their surfaces are closer to facing forwards and they are bent backwards to an extent depending on bullet speed and the toughness of the bullet. If the hollow point is filled with rigid material, such as compressed clothing or rib bone in particular, the hydrodynamic pressure can't get down into the hollow point to force out the petals and the bullet behaves like a solid. In that form it penetrates further but does less damage to the side of its track. It loses the very benefits that hollow point bullets are designed and chosen for!

The power ball gets round this problem by carrying its own liquid. Well, not quite, but it replaces it with a soft rubbery plastic which, when compressed from the front, presses outwards on the petals and opens them regardless of what it is going through. Unlike a conventional hollow point which collapses its petals into no more than a rough nose when fired through metal sheet, the power ball will expand as it hits the metal sheet. In practice, depending on the thickness and strength of the metal it might expand fairly normally, but it will then make a bigger hole and loose more energy than an equivalent hollow point, or it might fold back its petals and remain bigger than an equivalent hollow point. So shooting an attacker through your car door might have a better or worse result depending on initial bullet energy and where you hit your attacker from Power Ball to conventional HP. The conventional HP will almost certainly lose less KE but the Power ball will hit with a bigger frontal area.

The argument about whether it is better to have more penetration at the cost of less damage to the side of track has gone on for a long time but is irrelevant here. More or less what ever happen to a bullet as it hits a leather covered arm before penetrating the chest will be the same between conventional HP and Power Ball except that the Power Ball will expand normally and the conventional HP might clog. If you are devious minded you might gamble on the conventional HP clogging as a design feature to leave it with enough penetration in that circumstance.

That is the theory but how well the power ball behaves in the real world is a matter for the real world and also depends on the quality of its other design factors. Golden Sabre, Gold Dot, Black Talon and others are all conventional HPs but they don't behave quite the same. Similar factors within the Power Ball can make equivalent differences to its performance. In time we might get enough data to make a sensible guess. For now, I would be quite happy carrying Power Ball if I had that opportunity, but I would be happier with it if it had more than a 9x19mm cartridge case behind it.

As a small matter of interest, about half of all shots through the rib cage hit a rib on the way. That will make far less difference to a Power Ball than to conventional HPs.

English
Sorry you went to all that trouble.

The image in post # 3 is more convincing.
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Old 07-08-2013, 16:25   #35
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Once again WinterWizard, we can play your scenario games all day long....
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Old 07-08-2013, 17:47   #36
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Thanks for all the info guys. I think I am going to dump the Power Ball, and use something else like 230 gr HP for short barreled pistols. For the record so far the Micro Compact has been 100% reliable. However I have only fired a couple hundred rounds through it so we will see.
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Old 07-08-2013, 18:11   #37
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Old 07-08-2013, 18:53   #38
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Thanks for all the info guys. I think I am going to dump the Power Ball, and use something else like 230 gr HP for short barreled pistols. For the record so far the Micro Compact has been 100% reliable. However I have only fired a couple hundred rounds through it so we will see.

Well, good wisdom amigo, BUT... Man, understand, (politely speaking) you DO NOT need "short barrel ammo..." Just get a box of Ranger T 230gr bonded, or a box of WW PDX1 230gr, or Hornady 230gr XTP's.... You do NOT need that "short barrel mess."

Again, Out of my 3.78" barrel G36, same as your G30, I get 840/850-ish, with "factory, and my home rolled stuff in 230gr (which is all will consider shooting in a 45acp) gets 230gr XTP at 907fps...

This plenty enough in both...


ALL these are Plenty Enough for SD man ! Do Not buy into all this other hype.

I assure you these I have mentioned, and several others in 230gr, will give you ALL the horse power you need in that G30 for any SD senerio!



Good shooting !










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Old 07-08-2013, 19:45   #39
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Thanks for all the info guys. I think I am going to dump the Power Ball, and use something else like 230 gr HP for short barreled pistols. For the record so far the Micro Compact has been 100% reliable. However I have only fired a couple hundred rounds through it so we will see.
The Federal HST has a more rounded nose than some other jhp. They usually feed very well. Worth picking up a box or two to try.
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:27   #40
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Well, good wisdom amigo, BUT... Man, understand, (politely speaking) you DO NOT need "short barrel ammo..." Just get a box of Ranger T 230gr bonded, or a box of WW PDX1 230gr, or Hornady 230gr XTP's.... You do NOT need that "short barrel mess."

Again, Out of my 3.78" barrel G36, same as your G30, I get 840/850-ish, with "factory, and my home rolled stuff in 230gr (which is all will consider shooting in a 45acp) gets 230gr XTP at 907fps...

This plenty enough in both...


ALL these are Plenty Enough for SD man ! Do Not buy into all this other hype.

I assure you these I have mentioned, and several others in 230gr, will give you ALL the horse power you need in that G30 for any SD senerio!



Good shooting !










CanyonMan

Very well said. I've crono'd several loads in .45 from various barrel lengths and the velocity loss between them weren't enough to loose sleep over. In my crude ballistics testing and some that was scientific (some what) I've concluded the same thing about short barrel ammo. It isn't necessary.

All the good SD ammo has enough arse behind it to get the job done and then some.
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:28   #41
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The Federal HST has a more rounded nose than some other jhp. They usually feed very well. Worth picking up a box or two to try.
They've fed in everything I've tried them in so far. It's great ammo for sure.
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:59   #42
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Very well said. I've crono'd several loads in .45 from various barrel lengths and the velocity loss between them weren't enough to loose sleep over. In my crude ballistics testing and some that was scientific (some what) I've concluded the same thing about short barrel ammo. It isn't necessary.

All the good SD ammo has enough arse behind it to get the job done and then some.
Agreed.

With the .45 acp , 230 grain, a few fps more won't turn a bad shot into a good one and lack of a few fps won't turn a good shot into a bad one.

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Old 07-08-2013, 22:11   #43
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Wow what a complete group of morons. Can not read or comprehend. there are no...zero..magic bullets. Every single manufacturer on the planet has a fail video some where on the net. The best most consistent terminal ballistics have failed at some point. Yes some have better terminal balistics than others. Can not deny that. You are hoping that you do not have a bad batch.
I know why one would make the argument that a shot through the anus may not be as effective. Although in many of your cases it will work just fine. Brain shot.
People stop drinking the coolaid. You have little control over where the shot will take place. 10" of penetration is not great but certainly nothing to scoff at and as stated before people ***** and moan at over penetration or under. Handguns suck at delivering devastating energy to human targets compared to rifles. Please get it through your heads.... A hand gun is a trade off. Magic Golddots that may or may not function are worthless.
A round that functions in the gun is better. I was not advocating the use of Ball ammo. If it functions flawlessly then use it. People die from it all the time. Done...
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Old 07-08-2013, 22:14   #44
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Wow what a complete group of morons. Can not read or comprehend. there are no...zero..magic bullets. Every single manufacturer on the planet has a fail video some where on the net. The best most consistent terminal ballistics have failed at some point. Yes some have better terminal balistics than others. Can not deny that. You are hoping that you do not have a bad batch.
I know why one would make the argument that a shot through the anus may not be as effective. Although in many of your cases it will work just fine. Brain shot.
People stop drinking the coolaid. You have little control over where the shot will take place. 10" of penetration is not great but certainly nothing to scoff at and as stated before people ***** and moan at over penetration or under. Handguns suck at delivering devastating energy to human targets compared to rifles. Please get it through your heads.... A hand gun is a trade off.
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Old 07-08-2013, 22:53   #45
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...

And your 9mm +P+ and .357 magnum example is no good. They have improved even those bullet designs to get to 12"+ nowadays, realizing that the old penetration performance of those rounds wasn't cutting it...

That's simply not true. BPLE as well as .357 Mag. 125 gr. worked just fine for penetration.


Quote:
...PENETRATION is the most important aspect of terminal ballistics. This is fact.

If that were true we'd all carry ball ammo. Penetration is obviously a factor, that's a given. However, many times things are far more complicated and we don't have the luxury of excess time for someone to merely bleed out, i.e., exsanguination. However, let's not turn this into another Facklerite vs. Marshall supporters thread.
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Old 07-09-2013, 00:04   #46
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That's simply not true. BPLE as well as .357 Mag. 125 gr. worked just fine for penetration.

If that were true we'd all carry ball ammo. Penetration is obviously a factor, that's a given. However, many times things are far more complicated and we don't have the luxury of excess time for someone to merely bleed out, i.e., exsanguination. However, let's not turn this into another Facklerite vs. Marshall supporters thread.
Wasn't talking about specific bullet designs, just bullet designs in general. Hot, light-for-caliber 9mm and .357 magnum loads tend to penetrate a little better today because of improved bullet design.

And I wasn't saying penetration is the ONLY factor, just the most IMPORTANT one. And yes, if it were the case that all hollow points only penetrated 9" or less, I would be carrying FMJ. All I am saying is that any round, no matter how big or fast, is worthless if it can't penetrate to vitals. A kill shot with a .22LR is better than a flesh would with .44 magnum. I am not one of those idiots who argues for .22LR, but you know what I mean.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 07-09-2013 at 00:06..
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:03   #47
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Once again WinterWizard, we can play your scenario games all day long....
We sure can. Because scenarios where adequate penetration is needed will win the vast majority of times over scenarios where shallow penetration is needed.

All scenarios where "I have to shoot an attacker when loved ones or innocent bystanders are standing behind" are dumb. Because ANY hollow point can fail to expand and become an FMJ and pass through. Most times it will be a miss that is the problem.

A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:45   #48
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...A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

You're smart enough to realize that this oft presented 12" number is merely arbitrary. You're thinking it's something magical like the sound barrier when it's not. You're putting far more faith in the FBI than they deserve. The 12" decision was merely a scapegoat for bad tactics as anyone who has worked for/with a Gov't Agency quickly realizes their complete & utter failure for introspection, let alone admission of error.
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Old 07-10-2013, 00:24   #49
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All scenarios where "I have to shoot an attacker when loved ones or innocent bystanders are standing behind" are dumb. Because ANY hollow point can fail to expand and become an FMJ and pass through. Most times it will be a miss that is the problem.
So what you're saying is that those who choose SD loads that present less danger of overpenetration are "dumb"? That must mean that those who choose loads that have a higher probability of overpenetrating an attacker (those who follow the trends of the FBI and the jello shooters with their "12 inch minimum penetration is good and over 12 inches is even better" attitude) must be "smart"?

As for missed shots being a hazard, yes, that is true. But this is a whole different subject for another time.

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A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.
As mentioned before, two of the best street proven manstoppers, the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP loads fail to meet the FBI's standard 12" minimum penetration. Are these "crap" rounds?

Here's what Mas Ayoob has written about these two loads:

9mm

"For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.
These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them."

357Mag:

"One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.
It seems to be an argument akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The Winchester 125-grain Magnum load does not have either of those features, but worked every bit as well for such departments as the Maine State Police when they carried .357 revolvers.
This round tends to create a wound channel that is nine to 11 inches deep, but very wide, with tremendous damage around the radius of the wound track. It also has a nasty muzzle blast and pretty sharp recoil. The great combat shooting trainer and champion, Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree.
When departments such as City of Indianapolis Police Department, and the state troopers of Kentucky and Indiana issued that load, there were literally tons of bad guys shot with 125-grain Magnums, and they tended to go down “right now.” Texas Department of Public Safety personnel were known to refer to this round’s “lightning bolt effect,” and I knew Kentucky troopers who called it 'the magic bullet.'"

http://www.tactical-life.com/exclusi...om-the-street/

After the 1986 FBI fiasco, the FBI's 9mm "darling" load was the Win 147JHP subsonic. This met their arbitrary 12" min penetration. It often exceeded this to a fault of overpenetrating, often with minimal or erratic expansion in real human tissue (unlike the picture-perfect expansion they get when shooting blocks of gel) and sometimes with tragic results. Perps often had to be shot multiple times to incapacitate them with these subsonic loads. To paraphrase Mas from an article he wrote about the original deep penetrating 9mm 147JHP subsonics that were in use by LEO's all across this country; he had seen more overpenetrations with these loads, from all manufacturers, than not.

Conscientious, knowledgeable and properly trained gun carriers will choose appropriate SD loads that have the best probability of stopping (not KILLING as some fools believe) an attacker with the least amount of shots needed to be fired and with the LEAST probability of overpenetrating said attacker.

Legal citizen gun carriers don't need "bonded" or deep penetrating bullets that will get 12"+ after shooting thru a windshield or car door since such encounters are so rare. It's an anomaly. Ammo that has a high probability of overpenetrating an attacker is a huge legal and criminal liability for gun carriers. Why do you think that the use of FMJ or solid bullets in service calibers for SD is so thoroughly damned?

Once again, deep bullet penetration is not "all that" when it comes to personal SD ammo.
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Old 07-10-2013, 00:32   #50
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard
...A reliable expander that meets the 12" minimum is king. Reliability of expansion is what separates the best hollow points from the crap.

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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
You're smart enough to realize that this oft presented 12" number is merely arbitrary. You're thinking it's something magical like the sound barrier when it's not. You're putting far more faith in the FBI than they deserve. The 12" decision was merely a scapegoat for bad tactics as anyone who has worked for/with a Gov't Agency quickly realizes their complete & utter failure for introspection, let alone admission of error.
Well said my friend!
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