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Old 07-06-2013, 16:00   #21
fastbolt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
And yet, all standard pressure .45 in my area sits on the shelf, and when +P comes in, it flies off the shelf. Your personal experience selling ammo is not all-enclusive to the entire .45 acp buying market. Sorry.

You put HST 230gr on the shelf and HST 230gr +P on the shelf, I bet 7 out of 10 people buy the +P.
Whenever I've spoken with reps, sales folks & armorer instructors from some of the big gun companies, and the subject of .45 ammo comes up, it's been quite common to hear that their customer input (both LE & non-LE) indicates that standard pressure 230gr loads are the most popular selling loads, overall, with lighter bullet weights and +P running significantly behind, sales-wise.

Sure, that sort of thing will probably play out differently from one locality or one store to another, but overall, it's the standard pressure 230's that seem to sell better for them, in the overall big picture.

Ditto talking to repair techs and engineers upon occasion, and hearing how they do the bulk of their R&D for .45 pistols with 230gr ... because that's the most commonly used bullet weight according to their customer & marketing surveys.

One interesting exception was when I was speaking to a manager for Ruger, and he said the reason they originally bumped up the weight of their P90 recoil spring was due to learning that a number of their customers were apparently trying to "Magnumize" (his words) their P90's by using a brand of 200gr +P, which was also a bit harder recoiling than the 230gr loads.

They were originally using the same recoil spring in the 9mm P89 & .45 P90, but later added a pound (I think he said) to the P90 spring to better mitigate the slide velocity of the P90 if +P was being used. They also introduced the dimpled feed lips to help prevent displacement of the top round due to increased recoil.

I learned when speaking to S&W that they under stood their LE customers might sometimes use .45 +P, and if we desired, we could ask their engineering dept if they'd tested a specific brand of +P in the model we were using, to see if they had any suggestions or comments.

Naturally, though, it's prudent to make sure the company making any particular .45 even recommends the use of +P ammo in their gun.

Some folks find the recoil of the +P to affect their handling & controllability, regardless of whether it's being used in full-size or smaller guns, or whether they're made with steel, aluminum or plastic frames.

Just depends, I suppose.
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Old 07-06-2013, 16:13   #22
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230 gr 45 +P

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
After shooting the +P and standard pressure variants side by side, and seeing the chrono results, I've switched completely to +P. In my Sig and HK pistols, the recoil isn't any worse and my testing shows increased expansion, penatration, and energy on target.

For me, the +P load in .45 is a no brainer. My standard pressure ammo is for back up.
Ha Ha Deanna,
I knew you would come around to my way of thinking...

Last edited by barth; 07-06-2013 at 16:18..
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Old 07-06-2013, 16:48   #23
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I never understood the reason for +p .45 ACP in 230 gr., however in 185 gr. & 200 gr. it makes sense as they were usually used in handguns with shorter barrels in the past and needed the extra "oomph" to expand using the old cup & core JHP's.
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Old 07-06-2013, 17:07   #24
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I run HST's in both my XDs and my 30. Threw a bunch of varieties down the tube. The +P runs better in my 30 and +P is all that I now use in the short barrel guns. Never wanted to put a price on a life tool.
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Old 07-06-2013, 22:11   #25
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I never understood the reason for +p .45 ACP in 230 gr., however in 185 gr. & 200 gr. it makes sense as they were usually used in handguns with shorter barrels in the past and needed the extra "oomph" to expand using the old cup & core JHP's.
I used to lean away from +P in .45 but after a lot of testing and shooting I started to rethink it. It may not give me a large edge in terminal performance but I believe there is something measurable to be gained. How much actually? That's very open for debate and your guess is as good as mine.

But I figure what the heck. In the guns I'm shooting I find the +P as controllable as standard pressure loads so I figure there isn't anything to loose anyhow.

As far as the short barrel guns and +P ammo are concerned, this is the prime application for +P ammo. With the right loads, you can make a shorter barreled gun perform like a full size piece. Bullet technology certainly has improved in the last ten years and it keeps getting better.

The best thing about it is it gives us so many more options that weren't open to us twenty years ago.
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Old 07-06-2013, 22:12   #26
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Ha Ha Deanna,
I knew you would come around to my way of thinking...
I'm not ashamed to admit it! I like to keep a opened mind but I like to prove things to myself before I'll call it a fact.

In this case, I most certainly agree!

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Old 07-06-2013, 22:16   #27
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Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
Whenever I've spoken with reps, sales folks & armorer instructors from some of the big gun companies, and the subject of .45 ammo comes up, it's been quite common to hear that their customer input (both LE & non-LE) indicates that standard pressure 230gr loads are the most popular selling loads, overall, with lighter bullet weights and +P running significantly behind, sales-wise.
I am not talking about all .45 acp ammo (FMJ range ammo included); I am only talking about defensive hollow points. Neither am I talking about LE. Nor am I talking about the hollow points that people shoot for practice. I am talking about the hollow points that people actually keep loaded in their guns for defensive purposes. I don't doubt that actual sales data shows that standard pressure is more popular. That is probably the case with any caliber. But when it comes to the ammo people want for their guns, the overwhelming majority of people I know and talk to want +P, especially in 9mm and .45 acp.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 07-06-2013 at 22:17..
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Old 07-07-2013, 19:30   #28
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Big HST fan, I've got it for every caliber and I've shot every variety of it. I do use the .45 ACP +P version, but way back when I had a GAP, the 230gr HST did very well out of it, so I pulled a bunch of them and load a few up on occasion.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:10   #29
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My favorite .45 HP. I pay $49 & change all in at my LGS. Get it while you can, you won't be sorry.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:32   #30
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...I pay $49 & change all in at my LGS...




Did they use Vaseline?
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:29   #31
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Regarding standard vs +P in .45, my only experience with +P was with the 200gr Gold Dot +P and it is quite harsh. I may have to give the 230gr +P HST a try. The standard pressure is my current carry load.

What kind of fps difference is there between HST 230gr and 230gr +P in a typical 3.8-4" barrel (like you would have in a Glock 30 or H&K 45)? I'm guessing maybe 50 fps or so. tnoutdoors9 chronoed HST +P @ 957 fps from a 5" Colt and 844 fps from a Springy XDS but that is a much shorter barrel obviously.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 07-08-2013 at 08:38..
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:54   #32
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Regarding standard vs +P in .45, my only experience with +P was with the 200gr Gold Dot +P and it is quite harsh. I may have to give the 230gr +P HST a try. The standard pressure is my current carry load.

What kind of fps difference is there between HST 230gr and 230gr +P in a typical 3.8-4" barrel (like you would have in a Glock 30 or H&K 45)? I'm guessing maybe 50 fps or so. tnoutdoors9 chronoed HST +P @ 957 fps from a 5" Colt and 844 fps from a Springy XDS but that is a much shorter barrel obviously.
I think to some degree the difference is platform dependent.
With my classic alloy frame, stamp steel slide, Sig P220 45 -
the difference is quite noticeable.

Where shooting my HK45C or USP45 Tactical - not so much.

Last edited by barth; 07-08-2013 at 15:56..
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Old 07-08-2013, 17:19   #33
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Originally Posted by barth View Post
I think to some degree the difference is platform dependent.
With my classic alloy frame, stamp steel slide, Sig P220 45 -
the difference is quite noticeable.

Where shooting my HK45C or USP45 Tactical - not so much.

In my Sigs and HK's I didn't really notice much difference. In a 1911 and Glock, I could feel the difference. I don't have any explanation for why but that's my experience.

As I always say, recoil perception is a very individual thing and everyone perceives it differently.
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Old 07-10-2013, 23:45   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
I am not talking about all .45 acp ammo (FMJ range ammo included); I am only talking about defensive hollow points. Neither am I talking about LE. Nor am I talking about the hollow points that people shoot for practice. I am talking about the hollow points that people actually keep loaded in their guns for defensive purposes. I don't doubt that actual sales data shows that standard pressure is more popular. That is probably the case with any caliber. But when it comes to the ammo people want for their guns, the overwhelming majority of people I know and talk to want +P, especially in 9mm and .45 acp.

I was talking about defensive ammo. I generally do not sell target ammo unless I can not get any other ammo to sell.

Your assumption based on your circle of like minded friends or LGS that the +P is more popular is just that, a assumption.

The reality is the mid to late 90's were the gold age for +P and +P+ ammo. That does not mean some of us do not like shooting it. Nor does it mean that that will go by the way of the dinosaur in the immediate future.

Nation wide more people shoot and carry standard pressure ammo than the higher pressure loads. I carry both depending on what I happen to have in the shop at the time. Right now I have two guns on me. One is loaded with standard pressure the other +P+. Not by design that just happened to be what I had at the time. I have some 147gr HST that will probably replace the 115+P+ ammo as soon as I can make it out to the farm.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:48   #35
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I bought my brother two boxes to use in his G-30SF, then got a box and loaded nine rounds in a nine round G-30 mag, and I do not own a G030S yet (can't find one in Central Indiana)...............I did try a box of 180 gr .40, in my G-22/23/27, and found the accuracy of the nut behind the gun to suffer, great bullet design, looks promising, but not as accurate as other brands (Speer/Winchester) for me in my Glocks.

So try some, if its your most accurate round our of your Glocks GO FOR IT!
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:06   #36
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I pay $30/ box of 50 @ my LGS. They have a 1 box limit and sell lower quality stuff for their range. So far HST standard pressure is the only ammo that I have tested and feel comfortable using in my g30. Granted I have not tested any others....yet. Very reliable round.

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Old 07-11-2013, 07:40   #37
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Originally Posted by TayMan View Post
I pay $30/ box of 50 @ my LGS. They have a 1 box limit and sell lower quality stuff for their range. So far HST standard pressure is the only ammo that I have tested and feel comfortable using in my g30. Granted I have not tested any others....yet. Very reliable round.

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You mentioned HST's reliability. What about its accuracy?

Thinking of getting some for carry in my G30SF.

AK
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:25   #38
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Originally Posted by Arnold Kuhl View Post
You mentioned HST's reliability. What about its accuracy?

Thinking of getting some for carry in my G30SF.

AK
It's been rather accurate in everything I've run it in so far. I can average 3" groups at 25 yards and can do a bit better in slow fire.

It's good stuff!

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Old 07-13-2013, 02:28   #39
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Originally Posted by TayMan View Post
I pay $30/ box of 50 @ my LGS. They have a 1 box limit and sell lower quality stuff for their range. So far HST standard pressure is the only ammo that I have tested and feel comfortable using in my g30. Granted I have not tested any others....yet. Very reliable round.

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk 2
I've personally tested both the standard pressure and +P 230 HST in the following guns:

Two Sig 220's

HK45 full size

USP .45 Compact

5" 1911

It's been 100% reliable and very accurate in all those guns.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:29   #40
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It's been rather accurate in everything I've run it in so far. I can average 3" groups at 25 yards and can do a bit better in slow fire.

It's good stuff!

Better than 3" at 25yds? I can't even do that with my scoped .243!

AK
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