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Old 07-01-2013, 11:41   #1
CDW4ME
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Conditional accuracy and follow up shots with an open mind

I prefer bigger bullets, but I continually read comments about how there is little difference in the actual effect of modern HP ammunition between 9mm, 357 Sig, 40, and 45. I can easily understand how a millimeter or two of diameter is not as important as an inch or two of exact shot placement.

Given the understanding that shot placement trumps caliber and follow up shots may be required, accuracy and speed of follow up shots are both important. Since we are not going to count on a “one shot stop” and could be faced with more than one assailant, a 6 + 1 or 7 + 1 capacity is unfavorable; I am including capacity as a factor in my choice of carry pistol.

Using my Glocks, I decided to obtain some fresh data with carry ammo.

First, I fired each 8 – 10 shots slow fire at 7 yards to make sure the horizontal adjustment was good, if needed I tweaked it. I prefer to aim right on that small red dot and have the bullet POI either right on or up to about 1’’ high. Satisfied with POI, next was double taps.

My emphasis is on 1st– 2nd shot follow up time. I want both the first and 2nd shot to hit a 6’’ circle. I put several 6’’ circles on a larger target at 7 yards. I had not used the shot timer in about a year, so I gave myself a couple of warm-up runs with the Glock 19 prior to data collection.

This is the method I used for my data; I would shoot 4 pairs (8 shots) then check to see if any shots missed the circle, after covering any misses I repeated with 4 additional pairs. In order to obtain what I considered to be a fair representation of performance, I eliminated the greatest (slowest) time from each of the four pairs; if a shot missed then I also eliminated the quickest time. The result was at least 4 pairs that remained (for each pistol) and they got averaged.

I use the flush fitting magazines in the 30SF but all subcompacts (26, 27, 33) have Pearce +0 bases.
All of the pistols have Meprolight night sights except the 33 which has XS Big Dots.

Results:
Glock 19 using Federal 124 gr. HST +P: average .26 sec with 13/16 hits.
Glock 32 using Winchester Ranger T 125: average .26 sec with 13/16 hits.
Glock 23 using Remington Golden Saber 165: average .27 sec with 13/16 hits.
Glock 30 SF using Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shok: average .28 sec with 13/16 hits.
Glock 27 using Federal 180 JHP*: average .29 sec with 15/16 hits*
*I was skeptical with this result and Federal 180 JHP is not my carry ammo so I ran it again.
Glock 27 using Federal 180 gr. Hydra Shok: average .30 sec with 14/16 hits.
Glock 26 using Federal 124 gr. HST +P: average .30 sec with 15/16 hits.
Glock 33 using Winchester Ranger T 125: average .35 sec with 13/16 hits.

I was most pleased with the total cumulative POI from the 19, 23, 26 and 27.

I did not include my 29 SF in the test, because when I shot the initial 8 rounds slow fire to check POI it was higher than I prefer, even with light 155 gr. ammo and recoil was noticeably stiffer than the others.

Conclusion: Take what you want from this, but I am surprised by the slight to non-existent difference in follow up times (9mm vs 40) with similar pistols and hits on target.
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Old 07-01-2013, 15:58   #2
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Interesting results. I don't have as many options to compare, but I will definitely be trying a similar test between 9mm and 40 next time I go to the range. I'm really curious to see if my results are the same. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 07-01-2013, 18:42   #3
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Originally Posted by ACM73 View Post
Interesting results. I don't have as many options to compare, but I will definitely be trying a similar test between 9mm and 40 next time I go to the range. I'm really curious to see if my results are the same. Thanks for sharing!


Thanks.

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Old 07-01-2013, 19:23   #4
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But wait, I thought any 9mm can put 15 shots on target in .05 seconds and any .40 or .45 might be able to get 2 shots on target in 10 seconds? What gives?

Could it be the difference in controllability is as small as the difference in ballistics?
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Old 07-01-2013, 20:52   #5
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Try this experiment again shooting one handed (both left AND right hands). Also, try a .22LR pistol!

Last edited by cowboy1964; 07-01-2013 at 20:57..
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Old 07-01-2013, 20:57   #6
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Great post

Sent from my Milestone X2 using Ohub Campfire mobile app
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Old 07-01-2013, 21:07   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
But wait, I thought any 9mm can put 15 shots on target in .05 seconds and any .40 or .45 might be able to get 2 shots on target in 10 seconds? What gives?

Could it be the difference in controllability is as small as the difference in ballistics?
the G18 (full auto) can only shot 20 rounds per second. 15 rounds in 0.05 seconds using semi auto ain't gonna happened.

in fact split times of real good shooters is still in the 1/10 of seconds. 0.05 seconds is the blink of an eye
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Old 07-01-2013, 21:46   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
the G18 (full auto) can only shot 20 rounds per second. 15 rounds in 0.05 seconds using semi auto ain't gonna happened.

in fact split times of real good shooters is still in the 1/10 of seconds. 0.05 seconds is the blink of an eye
Rusty, I thought it would be painfully obvious that I was joking. But apparently, it wasn't.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:35   #9
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There is also no recoil before your first shot.
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:36   #10
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It was interesting that your second series times had increased by three to nine hundredths of a second. I suspect a fatigue effect is coming into play.

I have done a similar exercise with a G20 and a G19 but with a 5 shot string at 5 meters, about 16.5 feet, point shooting at an approximately torso shaped and sized target where the string is void if all are not scoring shots (the corners of the rectangle are rounded off for scoring). There was a very slight advantage to the 9mm, in the order of 0.02 seconds per split which in combat terms I would happily give away for the benefit of the extra effect on target of the 10mm. The advantage of the five shot is that it gives you four splits for each string and the variations are interesting in themselves.

Keep up the good work!

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Old 07-02-2013, 03:43   #11
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I've always included capacity as a factor in my choice of a carry pistol, that's one reason why a Glock is my EDC.

I also regularly include rapid fire shots in my range time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Try this experiment again shooting one handed (both left AND right hands). Also, try a .22LR pistol!
I should do more one handed shooting.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:44   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
the G18 (full auto) can only shot 20 rounds per second. 15 rounds in 0.05 seconds using semi auto ain't gonna happened.

in fact split times of real good shooters is still in the 1/10 of seconds. 0.05 seconds is the blink of an eye
Okay, I'm not a "real good shooter"

However, are the folks with 1/10 sec. times using compact & semi-compact stock pistols with carry ammo?

Can they keep the hits on a 6'' circle at 7 yards (at that speed) or is it simply hit anywhere on a silhouette?

I have not shot with others in about 19 years, so I have no basis of comparison.

My times would drop dramatically if I were content to simply hit inside the "5" ring or "coke bottle" of a B-27 target.

Apples to apples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
It was interesting that your second series times had increased by three to nine hundredths of a second. I suspect a fatigue effect is coming into play.

Keep up the good work!

English
Actually the 2nd run with the 27 was after the 33 and 26; the speed was equal to the 26 and quicker than the 33, so I think I quit before I was tired.

Thanks.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:44   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Okay, I'm not a "real good shooter"

However, are the folks with 1/10 sec. times using compact & semi-compact stock pistols with carry ammo?

Can they keep the hits on a 6'' circle at 7 yards (at that speed) or is it simply hit anywhere on a silhouette?

I have not shot with others in about 19 years, so I have no basis of comparison.

My times would drop dramatically if I were content to simply hit inside the "5" ring or "coke bottle" of a B-27 target.

Apples to apples?



Actually the 2nd run with the 27 was after the 33 and 26; the speed was equal to the 26 and quicker than the 33, so I think I quit before I was tired.

Thanks.
I think you did well. if you want to see the best, check this fellow out. this target is two to the body and one to the head. Three shots from draw and fire in 0.93 seconds. that is world class.

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Old 07-02-2013, 09:01   #14
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If you have never shot an IDPA target (the one above) the center mass circle is 8". It scores zero. the best you can do on a IDPA target is down zero (-0)

Bob Vogle has won many title and well know in the Practical Pistol shooting competitions
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:15   #15
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What I know of Bob is that he shoots that certainly make the power floor, a lot of the time he shoots a G34 with modifications, and he shoot close to 30K rounds a year.

here is a drill that will test your metal

two shots to the body, reload, 2 shots to the body and one to the head

shooter ready? stand by!

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:30   #16
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if Bob didn't not make you feel inadequate well Jerry will. 45 acp 12 shots in under 3 seconds with a reload.....from a revolver......that just ain't right

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