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Old 04-27-2013, 13:16   #1
Silas.soule
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Cult Members First, and Americans Second?

The Senseless Bureau predicts 100 million new Americans by 2050.

Historically, public schools have helped assimilate immigrants. Classrooms generally have an American flag and students pledge allegience to it. English is the norm, and immigrant students attend ESL classes in which English is taught.

So. What will the USA be like if the children of those 100 million attend private schools? By way of charter schools and tuition vouchers? Statistically, most private schools are religiously owned, and most of those are Roman Catholic. But, a Turkish imam runs a chain of charter schools in the USA, particularly in Texas, and those schools have already been caught teaching religion at taxpayer expense. Imagine the USA with many a taxpayer-funded classroom with no American flag nor pledge to it.

Imagine taxpayers funding schools that teach that Christians are infidels. Or, that Jews killed Jesus. Or, that a man should have multiple wives. In which allegience is to the faith, or Klan, first, and to the USA, if at all.

How could anyone police such a fragmented system? To make sure kids were not abused, brainwashed, molested, or indoctrinated in some religion.

This is what I fear. What does everyone else think?

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Old 04-27-2013, 13:40   #2
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I'm for choices, competition, and open classrooms.

A nice big red flag is when a school wants to keep parents away. Yeah, there might be some cooky stuff, but I'd bet you got a lot less liberal indoctrination from private schools facing competition.

Look at the charter schools out there that have to turn kids away because they don't have enough room to accept more. Those are the schools that all others should probably be emulating (for the most part, no rule is absolute).

John Stossel has some excellent observations on this situation.
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Old 04-27-2013, 17:53   #3
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Dissolve the Department of Education. Government has no place educating children. Free market competition and exchange breeds higher education standards and results in a better informed and better educated populace instead of subservient sheep.

Schools should compete for students instead of fixing test scores to receive bigger budgets from the Feds. Have we not decided in America that Capitalism trumps central planning? If so, why have we left something so important as education in the hands of a corrupt, ineffecient and inept government?
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Old 04-27-2013, 18:08   #4
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>>>Imagine taxpayers funding schools that teach ... that Jews killed Jesus.

A school in America teaching honest history without special interest pressures on the curriculum? And teaching it honesty? And in accordance with religion? How could anyone not like the idea?


Crucify him, Crucify him!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


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The "Blood libel" is not a libel, it is historical fact.
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Old 04-27-2013, 18:13   #5
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It makes no difference, the USA is over, finished, killed deader then Abe Lincoln through the treachery of John Roberts. Within a far shorter time spectrum then 2050 this all devolves into war, both civil and religious, an absolute certainty.
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Old 04-27-2013, 18:19   #6
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Yes, let's send all our kids to public schools run by those pinko, Commie, Obama lovin' socialist teachers.
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Old 04-27-2013, 20:15   #7
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Well I, for one, am not sending my child anywhere near the public school system (at least until he's at the college level and can decide for himself). The kid is surrounded by Ph.D.s who care a hell of a lot more about his education than some impossible-to-fire public union schmuck.
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Old 04-27-2013, 20:46   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
>>>Imagine taxpayers funding schools that teach ... that Jews killed Jesus.

A school in America teaching honest history without special interest pressures on the curriculum? And teaching it honesty? And in accordance with religion? How could anyone not like the idea?


Crucify him, Crucify him!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


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The "Blood libel" is not a libel, it is historical fact.
What? He violated the laws of the god of abraham so he was executed according to the law. That is what happens to heretics.
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Old 04-30-2013, 14:01   #9
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I'm for choices, competition, and open classrooms.

A nice big red flag is when a school wants to keep parents away. Yeah, there might be some cooky stuff, but I'd bet you got a lot less liberal indoctrination from private schools facing competition.

Look at the charter schools out there that have to turn kids away because they don't have enough room to accept more. Those are the schools that all others should probably be emulating (for the most part, no rule is absolute).

John Stossel has some excellent observations on this situation.
My take on the matter is that the kind of competition advocates of charter schools and tuition vouchers will create will not be true competition. If every family is entitled to a $3,000 voucher, the poor will get a 3,000 dollar education, and the privileged will use their's to reduce their kid's $15,000 tuition bill by 3,000 dollars.

The Kentucky Derby is Saturday. If a horse were allowed to begin the race at the final bend of the track, that would not be true competition. I think that scenario, along with charters and vouchers, would only give us a cutt-throat kind of competition, and would allow the upper classes to dominate the rest of us. Already, the middle class is shrinking, so why accelerate the division of America into a South American, highly Roman Catholic kind of oligarchy?

Of course, not all Catholics advocate charters and vouchers, and many a Protestant, Morman, Jew and Muslim do. (The church heirarchy is a different matter. The Pope of the 1930's issued a statement endorsing fascism's heirarchical arrangement of society, calling it natural.) But, you get my drift. Only the USA with its separation of government from religion is fully dedicated to equal opportunity. (Socialized religion is worse than a socialized energy sector or auto industry.) The weaknesses of present day public schools do not warrant throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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Old 04-30-2013, 14:09   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronny View Post
>>>Imagine taxpayers funding schools that teach ... that Jews killed Jesus.

A school in America teaching honest history without special interest pressures on the curriculum? And teaching it honesty? And in accordance with religion? How could anyone not like the idea?


Crucify him, Crucify him!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


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The "Blood libel" is not a libel, it is historical fact.
Who would you trust to less politicize the curriculum, nor use it to teach religion: a secular government, or clergy. Ha. Give religion an inch and it will take a mile. Afterall, any one not believing is going to Hell.
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Old 04-30-2013, 14:10   #11
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Well I, for one, am not sending my child anywhere near the public school system (at least until he's at the college level and can decide for himself). The kid is surrounded by Ph.D.s who care a hell of a lot more about his education than some impossible-to-fire public union schmuck.
But, pedophiles will stay hidden longer in a fragmented system run largely by churches. The perfect place for them to hide.

(Everyone, I love a debate, so you're not pissing me off.)

Back to my original point: How is the USA going to assimilate 100 million people when their children may be educated in schools that teach them religion, at taxpayer expense? In a fragmented, privatized system that is impossible to police? The "David Koresh School of Waco" might teach hatred of the USA. Islamic schools might teach classes in foreign tongues. Ku Klux Klan schools might teach that certain Americans are sub-human. Etc. Maybe I'm wrong. If you think such a system could assimilate them and give them a sense of being Americans first, elaborate.

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Old 05-01-2013, 04:44   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas.soule View Post
My take on the matter is that the kind of competition advocates of charter schools and tuition vouchers will create will not be true competition. If every family is entitled to a $3,000 voucher, the poor will get a 3,000 dollar education, and the privileged will use their's to reduce their kid's $15,000 tuition bill by 3,000 dollars.

The Kentucky Derby is Saturday. If a horse were allowed to begin the race at the final bend of the track, that would not be true competition. I think that scenario, along with charters and vouchers, would only give us a cutt-throat kind of competition, and would allow the upper classes to dominate the rest of us. Already, the middle class is shrinking, so why accelerate the division of America into a South American, highly Roman Catholic kind of oligarchy?

Of course, not all Catholics advocate charters and vouchers, and many a Protestant, Morman, Jew and Muslim do. (The church heirarchy is a different matter. The Pope of the 1930's issued a statement endorsing fascism's heirarchical arrangement of society, calling it natural.) But, you get my drift. Only the USA with its separation of government from religion is fully dedicated to equal opportunity. (Socialized religion is worse than a socialized energy sector or auto industry.) The weaknesses of present day public schools do not warrant throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Oh, so what you want is redistribution of wealth. Rich kids parents to pay for a public education that they aren't using so that the assistant to the assistant third vice principle can drive a BMW too?! The money that goes into public education is largely wasted on bloated bureaucracy and HUGE managerial staffs. John Stossel had a couple of very good videos you should watch about education.

Which of your relatives is a school administrator?
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:46   #13
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But, pedophiles will stay hidden longer in a fragmented system run largely by churches. The perfect place for them to hide.

(Everyone, I love a debate, so you're not pissing me off.)

Back to my original point: How is the USA going to assimilate 100 million people when their children may be educated in schools that teach them religion, at taxpayer expense? In a fragmented, privatized system that is impossible to police? The "David Koresh School of Waco" might teach hatred of the USA. Islamic schools might teach classes in foreign tongues. Ku Klux Klan schools might teach that certain Americans are sub-human. Etc. Maybe I'm wrong. If you think such a system could assimilate them and give them a sense of being Americans first, elaborate.
Borg tactics? Pedophiles do better in the public system where poor performance isn't a job killer. It gives them time to stalk. Plus in a charter school a teacher can be removed in a day, public school?, it could take a year.

I'm thinking you are making a lot of this stuff up. Got any stats at all about pedophiles hiding in charter schools?

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Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 05-01-2013 at 04:51..
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Old 05-01-2013, 15:36   #14
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Oh, so what you want is redistribution of wealth. Rich kids parents to pay for a public education that they aren't using so that the assistant to the assistant third vice principle can drive a BMW too?! The money that goes into public education is largely wasted on bloated bureaucracy and HUGE managerial staffs. John Stossel had a couple of very good videos you should watch about education.

Which of your relatives is a school administrator?
You think public education a "redistribution of wealth"? That's surprising, as this country has generally thought public schools an essential part of democracy. (Wouldn't Yellowstone National Park be a redistribution of wealth and socialism, also?) Jefferson and the rest knew we needed literate people, and this nation did not opt for a privatized system in which taxpayer money was handed to religious groups. In fact, about 38 states have state constitutions which prohibit use of tax money for religious schools. They passed these "Blaine Amendments" because in that day (1870's), as today, the Roman Catholic Church sought taxpayer money. It has only been with America's moving away from being a Protestant nation that large numbers of people view vouchers and charter schools as good.

I don't blame Catholicism, totally, though its leadership is guilty as sin on this one. Muslims, cults, and the rest, will all want to open schools with our money.

By the way, the US Senate just rejected turning "Title I of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act" into a voucher program. As part of the 2014 Budget. The vote was 60-39, with 6 Republicans, 52 Democrats, and 2 independents voting "No".

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Old 05-01-2013, 15:43   #15
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Borg tactics? Pedophiles do better in the public system where poor performance isn't a job killer. It gives them time to stalk. Plus in a charter school a teacher can be removed in a day, public school?, it could take a year.

I'm thinking you are making a lot of this stuff up. Got any stats at all about pedophiles hiding in charter schools?

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No, I do not, but I have heard something about Catholic Bishops not taking decisive action to keep pedophile priests away from children. David Koresh (not Catholic) is thought by some to have been a pedophile. I do not want such people partaking of tax money.
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:35   #16
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The literacy rate before public education was something like 98%. All competitive markets are "fragmented" -- that's the point. It is impossible for the market to find, reward, and implement innovation if everything is perfectly uniform. That's why the private sector tends to be filled with innovation, and as a whole gets better year after year (look at the performance of the cheapest PC's today vs. the most expensive ones in 2000), and why government performance on average gets worse every year.

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Old 05-01-2013, 17:45   #17
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The literacy rate before public education was something like 98%. All competitive markets are "fragmented" -- that's the point. It is impossible for the market to find, reward, and implement innovation if everything is perfectly uniform. That's why the private sector tends to be filled with innovation, and as a whole gets better year after year (look at the performance of the cheapest PC's today vs. the most expensive ones in 2000), and why government performance on average gets worse every year.
On this we agree.

This Country did a very good job of education before it became a nationalized industry with a virtual monopoly, and no regard for performance.
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:48   #18
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Quote:
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No, I do not, but I have heard something about Catholic Bishops not taking decisive action to keep pedophile priests away from children. David Koresh (not Catholic) is thought by some to have been a pedophile. I do not want such people partaking of tax money.
Last I heard, that was old news.... I hope they catch all the ones that are still alive, and excommunicate them before they receive their criminal sentences.....

So, what you are doing is stirring the stuff, looking for radical or undesirable things that have happened, without paying attention to the many positive things that are happening with charter and private schools.

Competition is what the school systems need. They also need to chop off about half of their bureaucratic administrative load. We have way too much attention paid to administrators, and not nearly enough paid to the kids.

The blob needs to die. If vouchers help that, I'm perfectly OK with that. If citizens can take their education tax money where they want to take it, that's even better.
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Old 05-01-2013, 17:55   #19
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Dissolve the Department of Education.
This was my first thought as well.

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Old 05-02-2013, 19:03   #20
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The literacy rate before public education was something like 98%. All competitive markets are "fragmented" -- that's the point. It is impossible for the market to find, reward, and implement innovation if everything is perfectly uniform. That's why the private sector tends to be filled with innovation, and as a whole gets better year after year (look at the performance of the cheapest PC's today vs. the most expensive ones in 2000), and why government performance on average gets worse every year.

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School prepares children for the adult world of competition. By giving them all a level playing field. Otherwise, you have a caste-based society, such as India, or Great Britain, who we whooped back in the 1700's.
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