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Old 04-25-2013, 12:20   #81
Colorado4Wheel
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Over SAAMI spec.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:31   #82
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Over SAAMI spec.
As typical with big organizations SAAMI has got to get their head out of it. I looked on their official web site,

http://www.saami.org/specifications_....cfm?page=ANSI

and I can't find any specs for the 10mm at all. The even had the .41 AE but no 10mm SAAMI specs.

Could you give me a link ?

I'd like to check it out, not that I doubt you but I remember when Cooper was touting the 200gn/1,200 fps load and I don't remember him mentioning that it was "over pressure".

I don't have a manual hand at the moment but when I was setting up my loads for the XTP I don't remember seeing that the pressure was alarmingly higher than some of the lighter bullet high velocity loads.

I sure don't want to think I missed something.

Last edited by countrygun; 04-25-2013 at 12:37..
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Old 04-25-2013, 13:03   #83
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http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf

Page 15 and many other places

I don't have the report that the original Norma ammo was over pressure. It was probably a QC issue not a design issue. That ammo broke guns. But if you look at Buffalo Bore and Double Tap they both max out around 200gr @ 1200fps in a Glock G20. Anything beyond that is going to be over SAAMI spec more then likely.

http://www.gunblast.com/10mm.htm

Link has actual Chrono Data.

Remember Load Data in a manual is out of a test barrel not a real gun for the most part.
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Old 04-25-2013, 13:21   #84
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf

Page 15 and many other places

I don't have the report that the original Norma ammo was over pressure. It was probably a QC issue not a design issue. That ammo broke guns. But if you look at Buffalo Bore and Double Tap they both max out around 200gr @ 1200fps in a Glock G20. Anything beyond that is going to be over SAAMI spec more then likely.

http://www.gunblast.com/10mm.htm

Link has actual Chrono Data.

Remember Load Data in a manual is out of a test barrel not a real gun for the most part.
Thanks, I hate that format, it's like trying to use a sledgehammer to set finish nails with my clumsy fingers.

I was concerned because I am going to be building my new loads around a new mold and aiming for about 1,150 with a 200 gn HCL bullet. My general working velocity for .41 & .44 loads
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Old 04-25-2013, 13:28   #85
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Just use the right powder. I got 1150fps with 180 gr jacketed and Power Pistol. Beyond that things really inconsistent unless I used a heavy recoil spring. Longshot would be my choice.
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Old 04-25-2013, 17:26   #86
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
...I don't have the report that the original Norma ammo was over pressure. It was probably a QC issue not a design issue. That ammo broke guns. But if you look at Buffalo Bore and Double Tap they both max out around 200gr @ 1200fps in a Glock G20. Anything beyond that is going to be over SAAMI spec more then likely...


Norma actually produced three different 10mm loads.

200gr FMJ theoretically at 1200fps & averages about 1130 fps in a Glock 20.

170gr JHP theoretically at 1300fps.

165gr JHP theoretically at 1400fps.

Supposedly, Norma spec'd the 10mm initially at 44,000 CUP. I had a friend who bought a Delta Elite (1st Gen.) when they came out and he had peening which was due to Colt underspringing the gun. The frame cracking was merely due to the frame cutout Colt used then but has since abandoned on all 1911 models. The bigger problem in the 80's was getting a good RSA.

A 20 gr. load of 2400 in a .41 Mag under a 220 gr. hard cast will leave the 10mm Kool-Aid drinkers changing their diaper.
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Old 04-25-2013, 17:54   #87
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I could be mistaken, but I thought it was D&D's Bren Ten that was having problems with frames breaking.

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Old 04-25-2013, 18:10   #88
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I could be mistaken, but I thought it was D&D's Bren Ten that was having problems with frames breaking.

The first Colt Delta Elites cracked above the slide stop "window". Colt just decided to cut that section out.

Very similar to the problem Star had with the early PDs
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Old 04-25-2013, 18:43   #89
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I could be mistaken, but I thought it was D&D's Bren Ten that was having problems with frames breaking.

It's hard for Steve to admit that a 1911 can break.
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Old 04-25-2013, 19:19   #90
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It's hard for Steve to admit that a 1911 can break.
That ain't no 1911. It shoots 10mm.

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Old 04-25-2013, 22:39   #91
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I could be mistaken, but I thought it was D&D's Bren Ten that was having problems with frames breaking.

I have a first gen Delta, also shot several Bren10 with the factory ammo. The Norma stuff was hot, 1190fps in the Delta. The 170gr stuff a bit over 1210fps. The Hornady 170gr stuff was also hot @ 1285fps.
With Longshot, running 175gr WSTHP @ 1250fps is easily done. I have run 200gr Ranier over 1200fps using LS & BD. It really is too much of a good thing in th 1911. I prefer to run heavier loads in my 1006 or a G20.
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Old 04-25-2013, 23:45   #92
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Yes, the Bren Ten was the first 10mm. They were poorly constructed and the 10mm battered them to pieces. On top of that magazines were hard to find, and D&D went bankrupt.

Colt saved the 10mm with the Delta Elite in 1986. It was my understanding that Colt used standard recoil springs and the 1st generation Delta Elites developed cracked frames. The story, back then, was that the 10mm was too powerful and would batter guns to ruin. The Omega was a 1911A1 built heavier & beefier to absorb the abusive recoil of the 10mm. The AMT Javelina was a 1911A1 with a 7" barrel and longer slide to be able to handle the 10mm. There were many others, but the story was all the same. The problem was not the cartridge as developed by Norma, it was that the firearms manufacturers that did not understand what they had in the 10mm. They all rushed to produce a pistol for the hot new cartridge, and in most cases it was simply a .45 ACP pistol with a barrel cut for 10mm. The .45 ACP is a low pressure cartridge and these pistols were not designed for the higher pressure 10mm. Glock was one of the only companies to design a pistol from the ground up to handle the 10mm, and then afterwards was fitted with a .45 ACP barrel.

At any rate, Colt figured this all out and Delta Elites are, now, better suited to handle the 10mm without any issues.

Now all they have to do is get around to offering these?

Colt Delta Elite Rail Gun
Caliber Corner


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"Only large manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:51   #93
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I have to keep repeating that the pressure of the cartridge has no relevance to anything in an auto pistol except for the containment structure. That is, as long as it does not burst the barrel or break the lockup between barrel and slide or break the breech face, the rest of the pistol does not care. It is quite easy to make these parts strong enough. All the rest of the pistol cares about is the momentum of the fired cartridge. The reverse of that momentum is transmitted to the barrel-slide assembly and that results in the velocity of the barrel when it hits its stop and the velocity of the slide when it hits its stop. It is those two impacts that break locking block pins, locking blocks, slides and, sometimes, frames.

Gas pressure does not do this, but momentum does and it does it via the kinetic energy of the barrel and slide. That is a function of the bullet momentum and the weight of the slide and barrel. By making the slide of the G20 heavier than that of the 1911, its K.E. is reduced for the same bullet momentum relative to the 1911 and so its impact is less damaging. The fact that the slide is stopped by its impact with the front of the slide against the resilient plastic frame also reduces the load on both frame and slide.

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Old 04-29-2013, 15:58   #94
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Now the .357 sig with Hornady HP-XTP 115 grain has 1510 muzzle velocity & 582 energy which I think can challenge the BIG boys !! just my 2 cents !!!!
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Old 04-29-2013, 16:12   #95
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I have to keep repeating that the pressure of the cartridge has no relevance to anything in an auto pistol except for the containment structure. That is, as long as it does not burst the barrel or break the lockup between barrel and slide or break the breech face, the rest of the pistol does not care. It is quite easy to make these parts strong enough. All the rest of the pistol cares about is the momentum of the fired cartridge. The reverse of that momentum is transmitted to the barrel-slide assembly and that results in the velocity of the barrel when it hits its stop and the velocity of the slide when it hits its stop. It is those two impacts that break locking block pins, locking blocks, slides and, sometimes, frames.

Gas pressure does not do this, but momentum does and it does it via the kinetic energy of the barrel and slide. That is a function of the bullet momentum and the weight of the slide and barrel. By making the slide of the G20 heavier than that of the 1911, its K.E. is reduced for the same bullet momentum relative to the 1911 and so its impact is less damaging. The fact that the slide is stopped by its impact with the front of the slide against the resilient plastic frame also reduces the load on both frame and slide.

English
Well said and it reminds me of the remarkable coincidence involving the Colt Delta. It had a frame crack problem in exactly the same place as the Star PD, which was a scaled down 1911 had. Odd a low pressure and a high pressure round both cracking the frame in basically the same place. My guess would be the slides being too light for the job.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:23   #96
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Well if there is only 5 of them.......Game on Redhawk LOL.
Think Mossberg 590 with a speed feed stock and alternate loads of buckshot and goose loads.
But I am not aware of anyone hosing 5 masked intruders in one event, except for Ralpie in Christmas Story with his Red Ryder BB gun when he held off Black Bart and his gang.
I have a Mossberg 500 8-shot pump gun loaded with OOO buckshot loads.
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Old 05-01-2013, 13:00   #97
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English, your a Brit that knows his *****.

Wolf Spyder that picture of that Colt Delta Elite Rail Gun was
an orgasmic experence.

This is what makes the 357 great, it will blow throrgh an elk.

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-...uffaloBore.htm

I like them both but the 357 is best for me.
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:31   #98
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...
http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-...uffaloBore.htm

I like them both but the 357 is best for me.

From the linked article:

Quote:
...Persons living in bear country, while no doubt better served for personal protection by handguns larger than .357...

I think that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:58   #99
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Hi all! What are some important theoretical and practical differences between performance of these two calibers? It seems when bullet weight and velocity are equal, their ballistic characteristics are VERY similar. What are your thoughts/experiences?
depends on barrel length.

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Old 05-01-2013, 20:26   #100
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It has a lot to do with the platform you choose, I have 17 357's to choose from 2 1/4'' to
20'' all ss Rugers except for the 20'' ss Rossi.

My best load is a LBT 187gr. rnfp that will do things that most would not belive, I have been casting that bullet since the early 90's. Before that bullet I thought the 357 was not up to the job.

Trio Fijo I also have 44's 454's and one 475L and I cast for all of them, if you was in the
Boise area I would give you some of my cast bullets to try, we have bear, elk and such to see just how good things realy are.

I do have Glock's too, am working on a couple of 460 Rowland's to use for hunting and back packing, will try to get a 10mm conversion barrel too.
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