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Old 04-27-2013, 06:49   #621
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
How many innocents did he endanger?

ANSWER THE QUESTION!
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
None...
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
At least one.
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I don't know. Do you? Which innocent was he pointing the rifle at?
certifiedfunds, Ruble Noon, you guys are rank amateurs.

What Massachusetts and/or Federal law(s) did the officer violate?

What is the penalty for violating that/those law(s)?

What is the process for seeking charges against that officer?

I look forward to your educated responses.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:24   #622
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Nice. You realize I haven't called you a name, right? Yet you keep calling me names. I think that's a TOS violation but you're a LEO so I expect Russ to act like he didn't see it.
4949, would you please change the offensive word to, oh, take your choice, all are synonyms: obstinate - headstrong - stubborn, or all three.

Thanks...

And, no, certifiedfunds, I do not believe that is a violation of the rules regardless of who made it. If you disagree, please, feel free to report the post to Eric, mentioning the specific word "PIGHEADED" by clicking on the Civil Liberties Issues icon.

If there are any other offensive words in the thread, report those as well.

It has, however, been my experience in my 10+ years here, that Eric has a low tolerance for nuisance, unsubstantiated reports of rules violations. He eventually closes threads where the discussion has degraded to that level of bickering.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:29   #623
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They take money out of our paychecks to fund our own pension.

What did you think?
Umm okay. Where does the money that they take out of your check come from?
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:32   #624
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certifiedfunds, Ruble Noon, you guys are rank amateurs.
Yeah well, I can't speak for CF but I don't go around sweeping innocent people the muzzle of my guns.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:39   #625
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certifiedfunds, Ruble Noon, you guys are rank amateurs.
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Yeah well, I can't speak for CF but I don't go around sweeping innocent people the muzzle of my guns.
Guess I have to ask again...
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What Massachusetts and/or Federal law(s) did the officer violate?

What is the penalty for violating that/those law(s)?

What is the process for seeking charges against that officer?
I look forward to your educated responses.
Okay, you object to the officer's behavior, right?

Do you want him punished for that behavior?
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:00   #626
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Any room for a realistic response to pointing guns.

The officer should receive training. That's it. Muzzle discipline is important. It stops you from shooting things you don't want to shoot. Now, once the shooting starts, the rules change. Considering the fact that the POS bomber was likely to be only in one house, pointing guns at all of them is an unnecessary risk.

And yes, I know, IF the POS bomber had been in the window pointing a gun instead of another kid pointing a camera, he could have had the drop on one of the officers. He would have then given away his position, and the entire force would have born down on his location. We call it trolling for fire. One guy walks out a little a head of the rest on foot patrol, and if he gets shot at, everyone knows where to start shooting. I know that sounds crazy, but considering the body armor and bad aim of the average bad guy.....


My advice, is that until the shooting starts, keep your weapon ready, but pointed in a safe direction. Once engaged, still take the time to identify your target before touching the trigger.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:00   #627
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You wouldn't have been bowing to MY authority. The fact is, you have been called out for having an anti authority personality. This is easy for everyone to see, even with how you conduct yourself here on Glocktalk.
Called out? What does that mean? No, I don't like authority. I behave without it just fine.

Who the hell likes authority?
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:01   #628
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Oh sure.
Which part is incorrect?
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:09   #629
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Any room for a realistic response to pointing guns.

The officer should receive training. That's it. Muzzle discipline is important. It stops you from shooting things you don't want to shoot. Now, once the shooting starts, the rules change. Considering the fact that the POS bomber was likely to be only in one house, pointing guns at all of them is an unnecessary risk.

And yes, I know, IF the POS bomber had been in the window pointing a gun instead of another kid pointing a camera, he could have had the drop on one of the officers. He would have then given away his position, and the entire force would have born down on his location. We call it trolling for fire. One guy walks out a little a head of the rest on foot patrol, and if he gets shot at, everyone knows where to start shooting. I know that sounds crazy, but considering the body armor and bad aim of the average bad guy.....


My advice, is that until the shooting starts, keep your weapon ready, but pointed in a safe direction. Once engaged, still take the time to identify your target before touching the trigger.
Yep, sounds good...
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:20   #630
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Any room for a realistic response to pointing guns.
It is not a put down at all. Some things we did right and there are some things we need work on. One picture shows one thing that we might want to learn something from. A picture says a thousand words.

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Old 04-27-2013, 10:24   #631
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That all sounds great but you said I was repeating a lie when I said this:



So which part of my post is a lie?

I don't know about you but I'm very familiar with the rules of safe gun handling. I must assume a highly trained law enforcement officer is as well. Therefore, I must assume that when a highly trained law enforcement officer points a gun at someone they are prepared to pull the trigger. I'm not a highly trained law enforcement officer but I'm fairly certain that when someone points a gun at a law enforcement officer they certainly assume the same.

Do you disagree with any of that?
I guess that you just can't figure out from my rather explicit explanation that I was referring to the captioning of that picture. It is a distortion and we call that a lie.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:28   #632
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It is not a put down at all. Some things we did right and there are some things we need work on. One picture shows one thing that we might want to learn something from. A picture says a thousand words.

.
No one is perfect. I've never seen a single military operation in training or in combat that was flawless.

I think the guys comparing the police to nazi's and JBT's are way out of line.

It happened, no civilians were hurt in that search, there are some lessons to learn, so we learn them and prepare. Preparing is the most important part, because this will not be the last time this happens in our lifetimes.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:02   #633
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No one is perfect. I've never seen a single military operation in training or in combat that was flawless.

I think the guys comparing the police to nazi's and JBT's are way out of line.

It happened, no civilians were hurt in that search, there are some lessons to learn, so we learn them and prepare. Preparing is the most important part, because this will not be the last time this happens in our lifetimes.
This is an important point and separates the folks who have done some things from those who haven't. No human endeavor goes perfectly. It seems as though some people don't know this and point to flaws, errors, and mistakes as a failure of the whole operation. If flaws, errors and mistakes were "failures" then that pretty much means the human race and everything it's done so far has been a failure.

The chance of mistakes being made rises exponentially with the number of people involved, but if a task physically requires a number of people the wise person expects errors to happen. That does not condone or mean they will be ignored, they certainly shouldn't, that is why you have AARs and debriefings and generally a "lesson's learned" set of rules and guidelines that come down after a large operation.

Almost instantly pulling that many people together for an operation like that is a daunting task. There will be problems, the experienced person knows that.

Let me ask a question of the critics.

How are LEAs supposed to "practice" for such situations and explore better ways to do it?

I seem to hear a lot of screaming and teeth gnashing any time any LEA drills, or conducts a training exercise on public streets. "Oh no, they are practicing to oppress us"

So how are they to improve their performance since training scares folks just as bad, actually much worse, than an actual operation?
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:44   #634
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
No one is perfect. I've never seen a single military operation in training or in combat that was flawless.

I think the guys comparing the police to nazi's and JBT's are way out of line.

It happened, no civilians were hurt in that search, there are some lessons to learn, so we learn them and prepare. Preparing is the most important part, because this will not be the last time this happens in our lifetimes.
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This is an important point and separates the folks who have done some things from those who haven't. No human endeavor goes perfectly. It seems as though some people don't know this and point to flaws, errors, and mistakes as a failure of the whole operation. If flaws, errors and mistakes were "failures" then that pretty much means the human race and everything it's done so far has been a failure.

The chance of mistakes being made rises exponentially with the number of people involved, but if a task physically requires a number of people the wise person expects errors to happen. That does not condone or mean they will be ignored, they certainly shouldn't, that is why you have AARs and debriefings and generally a "lesson's learned" set of rules and guidelines that come down after a large operation.

Almost instantly pulling that many people together for an operation like that is a daunting task. There will be problems, the experienced person knows that.
Good points...
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:08   #635
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Umm okay. Where does the money that they take out of your check come from?
By your reasoning, I will be out of a job long before I will be out of my pension.

But thanks for your contribution just the same.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:09   #636
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4949, would you please change the offensive word to, oh, take your choice, all are synonyms: obstinate - headstrong - stubborn, or all three.

Thanks...

Russ, no problem.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:14   #637
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Called out? What does that mean? No, I don't like authority. I behave without it just fine.

Who the hell likes authority?
You have been identified as an anti authority figure.

Some people can deal with it a lot better than others, as is shown here.

Quote:
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Which part is incorrect?
Sorry, but I am not falling for your "bait."

EDIT: Since you dislike police so much, why not make a movement to dissolve them?
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:21   #638
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Question for Certified Funds

Who made this asinine statement?

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well, you answered your own question with the bold. The common thread through each of those criteria you mentioned is insufficient time to garner a warrant.



http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/495/91/

an entry may be justified by:

hot pursuit of a fleeing felon - not present

the imminent destruction of evidence - not present

the need to prevent a suspect's escape - not present. Escape from where? He was not even known to be in any house, they established a perimeter

the risk of danger to the police or others - not present. They didn't even know where he was, how could they know someone was at risk?

but, in the absence of hot pursuit, there must be at least probable cause to believe that one or more of the other factors were present and, in assessing the risk of danger, the gravity of the crime and likelihood that the suspect is
armed should be considered.

So, it is clear, when read in the context of established case law that had the police identified a house in which the subject was hiding they may have met the conditions necessary for a warrantless search, if:

He was seen running into a house

He was believed to be in a particular house with innocents

He began shooting from the house

Risk of escape likely wouldn't fly due to the large number of LE on the scene.

The key here is A house. Not every house in the 20 block area. I don't think anyone here will honestly argue that a judge would issue a warrant to search every house in a 20 block area (were there time)
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:22   #639
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You reap what you sow.
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Old 04-27-2013, 13:58   #640
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This is an important point and separates the folks who have done some things from those who haven't. No human endeavor goes perfectly. It seems as though some people don't know this and point to flaws, errors, and mistakes as a failure of the whole operation. If flaws, errors and mistakes were "failures" then that pretty much means the human race and everything it's done so far has been a failure.

The chance of mistakes being made rises exponentially with the number of people involved, but if a task physically requires a number of people the wise person expects errors to happen. That does not condone or mean they will be ignored, they certainly shouldn't, that is why you have AARs and debriefings and generally a "lesson's learned" set of rules and guidelines that come down after a large operation.

Almost instantly pulling that many people together for an operation like that is a daunting task. There will be problems, the experienced person knows that.

Let me ask a question of the critics.

How are LEAs supposed to "practice" for such situations and explore better ways to do it?

I seem to hear a lot of screaming and teeth gnashing any time any LEA drills, or conducts a training exercise on public streets. "Oh no, they are practicing to oppress us"

So how are they to improve their performance since training scares folks just as bad, actually much worse, than an actual operation?
They were practicing for an event like this at the Boston Marathon at the same time and same place. They are also going to be conducting "terror" drills in Denver, Portsmouth,NH and D.C. so the likelihood of another "terror" attack is high.
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