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Old 04-07-2013, 22:14   #26
*ASH*
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here is my ppq with paddle release . i would not have it any other way
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Old 04-07-2013, 22:38   #27
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Rooster, trust me that if you have to do a mag drop you will be moving to cover (if not already there) ASAP and not looking at sights. You will be (if smart enough) doing a rapid mental sitrep and not simply standing there with your wiener in the wind doing a reload la Dirty Harry. That is pure IDPA, middle of the afternoon, dorky photog vest fantasy for desk jockeys who dream of being real "operators".
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:57   #28
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It doesn't matter where you change your magazine: be it under cover, while diving for cover, or standing on a shooting line in a class. It's a dumb idea to plan to change your grip in a defensive situation.

Personally, I've never felt the average civilian will ever need to change magazines in a gun fight. EVERY video I've ever seen, c-store, jewelry store, gas pump, sidewalk.... after the first defensive shot, the perps go from 0 to 15mph in about 3 steps. That don't have any intentions of exchanging gunfire.

But, in every class I've taken, they had us change magazines. Even if you drop your magazine while moving and diving for cover, it's still stupid to have to change the grip on the pistol. I've seen the difference between keeping the grip on the pistol in every situation, vs having to change the grip on the pistol in every situation.

As for magazines changes, it's what is taught by every school.

Here is where I differ from EVERY school I've trained with: I do not believe in the "tactical reload". It's stupid. The idea that a civilian is going to be able to maintain the dexterity needed to go through all those steps during an adrenaline dump is ridiculous. IMO, they are training you to fail. Just like the CHP who died with a hand full of brass, the CCW will die with a handful of magazines. Fumbling to change magazines in that situation is idiotic. Anytime you have to change magazines in a defensive situation, is an emergency.

It's pure IDPA, middle of the afternoon, dorky photog vest fantasy for desk jockeys who dream of being real "operators" thinking to believe you can actually change the grip on your pistol two times during a stressful situation without screwing up. I know my limitations. "Tactical reload" and changing your grip on a pistol during a defensive situation is stupid.

You really think it's a good idea, to have to change the grip on the gun while diving or moving for cover?
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:28   #29
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The M2 mag change thing is REALLY interesting to me because:

I own a Q Classic, and am a lefty.

I've only been shooting a few years, and during most of that time have been shooting either a PPQ or Gen 4 G22. On either of these guns, fast mags changes are possible for me withOUT needing to change my grip at all.

I also only recently realized that most guns, even if set up for a lefty, would require me to change my grip to do a mag swap. If I was right handed, even a Gen 3 Glock would require a grip change, as the grip is slightly larger, and the mag release button slightly smaller compared to a Gen 4.

I really like not needing to shift my grip, and will try to make it a criteria for future purchases.

I'm not a real "operator", and don't want a grip shift for a fast mag change to be one more thing to need to train for. As someone else noted, it simply seems to me like shifting grip during high stress could go south very easily.

I'll check out a PPQ M2 when more mags are available. If I can release the mag without a grip change, I'll swap out my Classic for an M2. If not, I'll keep my Classic.

From the feedback I've got here on this very topic, it sounds quite possible.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:52   #30
Tiro Fijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
...You really think it's a good idea, to have to change the grip on the gun while diving or moving for cover?

Most people will do well just to hang onto the gun. No, it's not absolutely essential to know how to do an IPSC champ level reload. The one caveat is IF you carry a revolver as your primary weapon. Then one should practice speed reloads. Maybe someone carrying a small single stack semi-auto as well as many people today seem to be obsessed with "comfort" above everything.

That said, if the average layman finds themselves in the unlikely scenario whereas they have had to unload a full mag from say a 15 rd. G19 AND the situation is not resolved their first priority should be either getting to cover and/or self extraction from the vicinity, albeit safely, which may very well require a reload and suppressing fire. Extraction being the better choice if possible.

Again, in a civilian scenario this is about as likely as Rosie O'Donnell in a bikini. Most criminals don't want to go "toe to toe" in a High Noon style shoot 'em up.

Will the average layman need a reload? Probably not. However, although I don't plan on having a flat tire today I still have a spare in the trunk.

Last edited by Tiro Fijo; 04-08-2013 at 10:54..
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:44   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
...IF you carry a revolver as your primary weapon. Then one should practice speed reloads...
IF you carry a revolver as your primary weapon, and anticipate a need - ever - to reload under fire, you should start carrying a Glock.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:49   #32
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I don't mind the button mag release, although I prefer the paddle release. My first pistol with the paddle release was an HK P7M8, if you can call it a paddle. I thought it was the coolest thing to be able to release the mag with my index finger. There is definitely minimal amount of shift in my grip.

For those who have owned both the M1 and M2 PPQ, do you feel the M2 trigger was improved? I am going to bring my M1 to the shop to do a compare. Let's hope the gun will still be for sale at the shop.
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Old 04-08-2013, 14:35   #33
TexasPOff
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I have shot several of the Classic versions and now own an M2 version. I haven't noticed much difference between the triggers on them to be honest. All of them were head and shoulders above any of my other polymer pistols triggers.

I can take the paddle style or the button release and use both just fine. That is of course running typical drills and things of that nature. Now when the SHTF I am not sure the Paddle release would be a help to me, and may actually cost me.

I am accustomed to the button release and have been training with style of release for 30 + years(Browning HP and 1911 being the first ones). I have been in high stress SHTF situations and had to reload, which I honestly don't remember doing. My muscle memory has been trained for the button style.

I would suspect the button release would be strange for someone who has trained with the paddle release in the same way. They would probably be able to use it just fine, but when SHTF they would likely be indexing the trigger guard in vain.

IMO both systems work just fine as long as you are competent and fully trained for that system. Criticizing the M2 over the classic and vise versa is difficult for me since I can use either system effectively under most circumstances.

Now comparing the Classic's paddle release to other conventional button release firearms you will get a different answer. Yes I am used to the conventional, but I feel the paddle is a better system. Not having to break your grip is always more efficient.

FWIW I have relatively smallish hands and I can operate the M2 release with out breaking my grip. I can do the same with the Classic version as well.

I looked at the magazine issue when I got my M2. I figured Walther may or may not continue importing the classic version to the US. The M2 is here to stay and in the future would be easier to get magazines for.

My opinion is mine, and this time was not alcohol induced.

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Last edited by TexasPOff; 04-08-2013 at 14:48..
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Old 04-08-2013, 17:57   #34
CV67Chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
It doesn't matter where you change your magazine: be it under cover, while diving for cover, or standing on a shooting line in a class. It's a dumb idea to plan to change your grip in a defensive situation.

Personally, I've never felt the average civilian will ever need to change magazines in a gun fight. EVERY video I've ever seen, c-store, jewelry store, gas pump, sidewalk.... after the first defensive shot, the perps go from 0 to 15mph in about 3 steps. That don't have any intentions of exchanging gunfire.

But, in every class I've taken, they had us change magazines. Even if you drop your magazine while moving and diving for cover, it's still stupid to have to change the grip on the pistol. I've seen the difference between keeping the grip on the pistol in every situation, vs having to change the grip on the pistol in every situation.

As for magazines changes, it's what is taught by every school.

Here is where I differ from EVERY school I've trained with: I do not believe in the "tactical reload". It's stupid. The idea that a civilian is going to be able to maintain the dexterity needed to go through all those steps during an adrenaline dump is ridiculous. IMO, they are training you to fail. Just like the CHP who died with a hand full of brass, the CCW will die with a handful of magazines. Fumbling to change magazines in that situation is idiotic. Anytime you have to change magazines in a defensive situation, is an emergency.

It's pure IDPA, middle of the afternoon, dorky photog vest fantasy for desk jockeys who dream of being real "operators" thinking to believe you can actually change the grip on your pistol two times during a stressful situation without screwing up. I know my limitations. "Tactical reload" and changing your grip on a pistol during a defensive situation is stupid.

You really think it's a good idea, to have to change the grip on the gun while diving or moving for cover?

Rooster, are you really advocating for people to not to train/practice reloading? Most shooting hardly even involve aiming, surely you wouldn't suggest that we don't practice aiming?

You are right though, the average guy probably doesn't need to practice it, because he will never master it. And in a real defensive situation, you will default to the level of training that you have Mastered. Which is why ALL the top schools teach it.

And while we are dispelling myths.....CHP Officer James Pence did NOT die with a hand full of Brass.
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Old 04-17-2013, 19:39   #35
cal45
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I just picked up my new PPQ M2 this week. Having HK's in the past, I didn't mind the paddle mag release but I do prefer the new M2 mag release. Trigger pull on these PPQ's are fantastic.

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