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Old 04-16-2013, 14:17   #51
Bruce M
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I am uncertain that asking someone who is a suspect in an investigation to handle a weapon, to move it around, is a good idea tactically. Maybe that is why the police tend to give an order such as "drop it" as opposed to "put it back in your wasteband" or "resling it to the other side."
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Old 04-16-2013, 14:20   #52
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I am uncertain that asking someone who is a suspect in an investigation to handle a weapon, to move it around, is a good idea tactically. Maybe that is why the police tend to give an order such as "drop it" as opposed to "put it back in your wasteband" or "resling it to the other side."
Doesn't taking it off to drop it also require handling the weapon?
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Old 04-16-2013, 14:32   #53
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Had this happened in ABQ, that guy would've been shot by APD.
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Old 04-16-2013, 14:43   #54
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
My point is that the officer didn't have to instantly demand that the father surrender his weapon. The man wasn't breaking any laws or committing any overt, illegal act. Given this, the officer could have (and likely should have) simply asked that the father re-sling his weapon in a less 'aggressively tactical' manner.

Good cops know that sometimes the soft approach and defusing a situation works better than pushing a hard line and escalating things.

The mannerisms and totality of the circumstances of the contact dictate how it's played. The guy with the rifle at ready/pistol in his hand who is doing nothing obviously illegal may have just killed his wife down the street.

If you are investigating an unknown situation with a weapon at the ready you disarm them, not doing so has got plenty of cops killed. For example, a holstered pistol may be treated different than one in the hand.
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Old 04-16-2013, 15:05   #55
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The mannerisms and totality of the circumstances of the contact dictate how it's played. The guy with the rifle at ready/pistol in his hand who is doing nothing obviously illegal may have just killed his wife down the street.

If you are investigating an unknown situation with a weapon at the ready you disarm them, not doing so has got plenty of cops killed. For example, a holstered pistol may be treated different than one in the hand.
He didn't have a pistol in hand. It was holstered and concealed.

As for the situation being "unknown", every car a police officer stops and every person a police officer encounters MAY HAVE just killed their wife down the street. That doesn't justify treating everyone like a killer absent any sort of illegal act.

Look, I don't think the guy with the AR-15 was any more right than the officer. He should have realized that carrying a weapon in a ready position like that can cause alarm and will likely get you stopped and questioned. I'm just saying on the flip side, the officer probably could have approached this with a good deal more tact than hopping out of his car, drawing down and demanding that the guy surrender his weapon.

It sounds to me like BOTH of them need to lay off the testosterone a bit.
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Old 04-16-2013, 15:11   #56
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My point is that the officer didn't have to instantly demand that the father surrender his weapon. The man wasn't breaking any laws or committing any overt, illegal act. Given this, the officer could have (and likely should have) simply asked that the father re-sling his weapon in a less 'aggressively tactical' manner.
From what I have seen, law enforcement officers tend to respond to situations with emphasis on their own safety. And I wouldn't fault any of them for doing such. An officer responding to such a call would have no way of knowing whether or not the person walking around with a rifle is doing lawful things or not. It is perfectly reasonable to me that for the duration of his contact with the suspicious armed person that he secure the weapons.
Its silly to think otherwise. Least in my humble opinion.
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Old 04-16-2013, 15:24   #57
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An officer responding to such a call would have no way of knowing whether or not the person walking around with a rifle is doing lawful things or not. .
Well that applies to anyone walking. Why does a rifle change the situation?


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Old 04-16-2013, 15:48   #58
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He didn't have a pistol in hand. It was holstered and concealed.
You're right...he had a rifle. The pistol was a simple example.


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As for the situation being "unknown", every car a police officer stops and every person a police officer encounters MAY HAVE just killed their wife down the street. That doesn't justify treating everyone like a killer absent any sort of illegal act.
If I stop your car for speeding and I see you have a gun in your hand as I walk up it would immediately change things and be treated the same as this. A situation is treated differently when a weapon at the ready is present, it is common sense. For example, you would treat an unarmed man or even a man with a holstered pistol who is knocking on your front door differently than a man holding a gun.

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Old 04-16-2013, 15:53   #59
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Well that applies to anyone walking. Why does a rifle change the situation?
A rifle would make the situation more sensitive to the cop. A rifle, slung across the chest, with a mag in the well and the bolt closed makes it an even higher threat.

And I've read enough of your posts to know that you are smart enough to understand that. You're playing dumb, but you know exactly why the police respond the way they do/did.




Oh, and yes, walking down the street CAN be seen as a threat. someone calls the cops that there's a suspicious person walking down their street, they'll come to investigate. They get there, see you walking, and they're going to be on edge and order you to stop and keep you hands where they can be seen. This is both legal and proper. If you're dumb enough to keep walking or shove your hand in your pocket, your life is in YOUR hands, not the cops.

And after you've stopped, explained that your car broke down and you're just walking through the neighborhood to get home (old lady saw you, didn't recognize you, and called the cops; that's a "suspicious person" call that most police will investigate, at least with a pass-by in the car), then they will likely say "thank you for your patience, and sorry for the inconvenience." But, again, you act like a jackass, you get treated like a jackass, plain and simple.
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Old 04-16-2013, 16:08   #60
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
A rifle would make the situation more sensitive to the cop. A rifle, slung across the chest, with a mag in the well and the bolt closed makes it an even higher threat.

And I've read enough of your posts to know that you are smart enough to understand that. You're playing dumb, but you know exactly why the police respond the way they do/did.




Oh, and yes, walking down the street CAN be seen as a threat. someone calls the cops that there's a suspicious person walking down their street, they'll come to investigate. They get there, see you walking, and they're going to be on edge and order you to stop and keep you hands where they can be seen. This is both legal and proper. If you're dumb enough to keep walking or shove your hand in your pocket, your life is in YOUR hands, not the cops.

And after you've stopped, explained that your car broke down and you're just walking through the neighborhood to get home (old lady saw you, didn't recognize you, and called the cops; that's a "suspicious person" call that most police will investigate, at least with a pass-by in the car), then they will likely say "thank you for your patience, and sorry for the inconvenience." But, again, you act like a jackass, you get treated like a jackass, plain and simple.
That's how Rambo started. You know how it ended. That sheriff got more than he bargained for.

What if I'm a black guy walking down a white street? Legit stop and frisk?

What if I'm a black guy with a rifle on my shoulder in a white neighborhood? Just walking down the street.

Interested in hearing some Leo perspective on your post. Can a guy just walking down the street be put on the hood of your car?

Basically you've just described a police state. If a LEO wants to put me on the hood of his car simply because I'm walking down the street he can kiss my ass. I'd probably stop momentarily and answer a quick question but I'm walking. It sounds like you say he'd be justified in killing me for that.

I only hope someone gets video


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Old 04-16-2013, 16:11   #61
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
A rifle would make the situation more sensitive to the cop. A rifle, slung across the chest, with a mag in the well and the bolt closed makes it an even higher threat.

And I've read enough of your posts to know that you are smart enough to understand that. You're playing dumb, but you know exactly why the police respond the way they do/did.




Oh, and yes, walking down the street CAN be seen as a threat. someone calls the cops that there's a suspicious person walking down their street, they'll come to investigate. They get there, see you walking, and they're going to be on edge and order you to stop and keep you hands where they can be seen. This is both legal and proper. If you're dumb enough to keep walking or shove your hand in your pocket, your life is in YOUR hands, not the cops.

And after you've stopped, explained that your car broke down and you're just walking through the neighborhood to get home (old lady saw you, didn't recognize you, and called the cops; that's a "suspicious person" call that most police will investigate, at least with a pass-by in the car), then they will likely say "thank you for your patience, and sorry for the inconvenience." But, again, you act like a jackass, you get treated like a jackass, plain and simple.
You've been in Illinois too long


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Old 04-16-2013, 16:37   #62
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You've been in Illinois too long


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No, thats just the way things work. I bet if you pulled a stunt like the POS who was arrested, you wouldn't want to drop your soap where you would be going either.
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Old 04-16-2013, 16:41   #63
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No, thats just the way things work. I bet if you pulled a stunt like the POS who was arrested, you wouldn't want to drop your soap where you would be going either.
What stunt did he pull?

You believe it's acceptable to stop and detain someone for simply walking down the street like warcry said?

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Old 04-16-2013, 16:50   #64
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What stunt did he pull?

You believe it's acceptable to stop and detain someone for simply walking down the street like warcry said?
The Supreme Court has said it's okay.


If they get a call of a suspicious person, and I match the description, police can stop me and question me. That's proven law.

As to your other question about being put on the hood of a car, if I don't follow the officer's instructions, act belligerent, etc, you're damn right they can do that.

Most cops - and most rational people - won't get to that extreme. Most cops are going to know that a guy walking down the street is likely just a guy walking down the street. And the guy walking down the street generally isn't going to become a blithering idiot like the guy in this video.

Now, you take that circumstance, and put a gun in an operational-ready position and it changes the whole game.


Earlier I stated that I've seen your posts and believed you to be smarter than you were demonstrating. You're doing a good job of showing me that I may have been wrong in that sentiment.
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Old 04-16-2013, 16:54   #65
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The Supreme Court has said it's okay.


If they get a call of a suspicious person, and I match the description, police can stop me and question me. That's proven law.

As to your other question about being put on the hood of a car, if I don't follow the officer's instructions, act belligerent, etc, you're damn right they can do that.

Most cops - and most rational people - won't get to that extreme. Most cops are going to know that a guy walking down the street is likely just a guy walking down the street. And the guy walking down the street generally isn't going to become a blithering idiot like the guy in this video.

Now, you take that circumstance, and put a gun in an operational-ready position and it changes the whole game.


Earlier I stated that I've seen your posts and believed you to be smarter than you were demonstrating. You're doing a good job of showing me that I may have been wrong in that sentiment.
Case law?

What case law supports a stop and frisk unless an officer witnesses suspicious behavior?

Just walking down the street. Some old lady calls because she doesn't recognize him. Officer arrives. Still just walking.

What case law says he can be detained and put on the hood of a car if he declines to stop and answer questions?


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Old 04-16-2013, 17:29   #66
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Case law?

What case law supports a stop and frisk unless an officer witnesses suspicious behavior?

Just walking down the street. Some old lady calls because she doesn't recognize him. Officer arrives. Still just walking.
A Terry stop is pretty broad in it's definitions. If a person calls in a report, police have to investigate it. They may know it's going to be nothing, but they investigate because that's what they're paid to do. At this point, that would include something like this:

Cop to guy on the street (probably out the car window): "Hey, we got a call that someone's been acting fishy around here, and you match the description. You live around here?" etc
Guy on the street (rational guy): "Yep, I'm about 7 blocks up. I don't normally walk through here, but my car died, so here I am..."

Now, if the cop decides to run an ID, he can do that because he's investigating POSSIBLE criminal activity.

BTW, this part?
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Unless an officer witnesses suspicious behavior
That's just absolute crap. If an officer had to WITNESS suspicious behavior, they would make very, VERY few arrests, ever.


Now, this part is a COMPLETELY separate issue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
What case law says he can be detained and put on the hood of a car if he declines to stop and answer questions?
Cop to guy on the street (probably out the car window): "Hey, we got a call that someone's been acting fishy around here, and you match the description. You live around here?" etc
Guy on the street (you, apparently): "Screw you, cop! I know my rights and I don't have to tell you crap! Keep driving, because I ain't stoppin' for sh**!!!"

That's probably going to garner a little more attention, and has a very high likelihood of charges of interfering with an investigation.


Will the charges stick? Who knows, that depends on the DA/states attorney, but if you act like a tool, like the subject of this arrest (the thread, not my example), then you're probably going to find out.


My advice? Don't be a dumbass. It hurts less.
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Old 04-16-2013, 17:37   #67
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A Terry stop is pretty broad in it's definitions. If a person calls in a report, police have to investigate it. They may know it's going to be nothing, but they investigate because that's what they're paid to do. At this point, that would include something like this:

Cop to guy on the street (probably out the car window): "Hey, we got a call that someone's been acting fishy around here, and you match the description. You live around here?" etc
Guy on the street (rational guy): "Yep, I'm about 7 blocks up. I don't normally walk through here, but my car died, so here I am..."

Now, if the cop decides to run an ID, he can do that because he's investigating POSSIBLE criminal activity.

BTW, this part?

That's just absolute crap. If an officer had to WITNESS suspicious behavior, they would make very, VERY few arrests, ever.


Now, this part is a COMPLETELY separate issue:


Cop to guy on the street (probably out the car window): "Hey, we got a call that someone's been acting fishy around here, and you match the description. You live around here?" etc
Guy on the street (you, apparently): "Screw you, cop! I know my rights and I don't have to tell you crap! Keep driving, because I ain't stoppin' for sh**!!!"

That's probably going to garner a little more attention, and has a very high likelihood of charges of interfering with an investigation.


Will the charges stick? Who knows, that depends on the DA/states attorney, but if you act like a tool, like the subject of this arrest (the thread, not my example), then you're probably going to find out.


My advice? Don't be a dumbass. It hurts less.
You might want to go read up on a Terry stop. It doesn't allow what you described

Dumbass


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Old 04-16-2013, 17:47   #68
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What stunt did he pull?

You believe it's acceptable to stop and detain someone for simply walking down the street like warcry said?

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Come on CF, you've debated with statist's before.
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Old 04-16-2013, 17:48   #69
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You might want to go read up on a Terry stop. It doesn't allow what you described

Dumbass


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You might want to read up on Terry. Reasonable suspicion is what is needed, that's less then probable cause. In this case there was apparently a man with a gun call. They found the person with the firearm asked him to disarm while the investigated and when he didn't he was arrested. What is so difficult to understand about that?
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Old 04-16-2013, 17:49   #70
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You might want to read up on Terry. Reasonable suspicion is what is needed, that's less then probable cause. In this case there was apparently a man with a gun call. They found the person with the firearm asked him to disarm while the investigated and when he didn't he was arrested. What is so difficult to understand about that?
We're discussing warcrys claim that a man walking down the street can be detained because some old lady doesn't recognize.

There is no reasonable suspicion

Furthermore carrying a rifle is not reasonable suspicion. What crime?


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Old 04-16-2013, 18:00   #71
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Old 04-16-2013, 18:04   #72
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We're discussing warcrys claim that a man walking down the street can be detained because some old lady doesn't recognize.

There is no reasonable suspicion

Furthermore carrying a rifle is not reasonable suspicion. What crime?


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First of all I suggest you look up what reasonable suspicion is. Second WarCry did not say anyone on the street, he said anyone matching the description. I can think of several things that someone walking with a rifle can be charged with, the old catch all disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. I'm willing to bet if the jerk had relinquished the weapon(s) while the investigation was conducted we wouldn't be talking about this and he would not have been charged with anything.
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Old 04-16-2013, 18:23   #73
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First of all I suggest you look up what reasonable suspicion is. Second WarCry did not say anyone on the street, he said anyone matching the description. I can think of several things that someone walking with a rifle can be charged with, the old catch all disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. I'm willing to bet if the jerk had relinquished the weapon(s) while the investigation was conducted we wouldn't be talking about this and he would not have been charged with anything.
Reasonable suspicion of suspicious.

Again, warcrys example. Suspicious of what? Walking down the street? Piss off. (Not you)

If the cops had acted appropriately this guy wouldn't have gotten what you all say he wanted. There would be no story. Walking down the street with a rifle slung over your shoulder is not reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

I love the disorderly conduct/disturbing the peace bit. Please arrest me for that.

Tell me what other crimes can a man walking with a rifle be charged with. I'm all ears.


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Old 04-16-2013, 18:26   #74
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First of all I suggest you look up what reasonable suspicion is. Second WarCry did not say anyone on the street, he said anyone matching the description. I can think of several things that someone walking with a rifle can be charged with, the old catch all disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. I'm willing to bet if the jerk had relinquished the weapon(s) while the investigation was conducted we wouldn't be talking about this and he would not have been charged with anything.
Watch as I prove I'm a bigger man...

I'll admit, in the example I gave, I was NOT talking about a man with a gun. I was talking about the police get a call from someone that says "there's a guy walking down my street, I don't recognize him, never seen him, he's not one of my neighbors, and I think he might be up to something!" and then proceeds to give a description of the person, what they're wearing, etc.

Now, I know - for a fact, because I've seen it happen - the cop that gets that call from dispatch is going to roll his eyes, but he'll respond to it (barring any other more immediate calls coming in). The cop is likely going to approach it with the attitude of just satisfying the lady that called it in. He sees a guy that matches the exact description, and then he'll probably just ask the "hey, how's it goin'? Mind if I talk to you a minute?"

Now, you take that scenario, and THEN you add a gun into the mix - and not just a gun, but a gun at the ready position, and things aren't going to just be "Hey, mind if I talk to you?"




But it IS true. I did say that a police officer will and can stop someone to ask who they are WHEN RESPONDING TO AN INQUIRY BY A CITIZEN without any mention of a gun. They'll handle it however the person they're talking to decides it should be handled.


CF just appears to be of a mind that a police officer should never, ever, EVER talk to a citizen on the street unless they WITNESS that citizen committing a crime or the cop is violating every civil right in existence.
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Old 04-16-2013, 18:27   #75
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If the cops had acted appropriately this guy wouldn't have gotten what you all say he wanted. There would be no story. Walking down the street with a rifle slung over your shoulder is not reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
Absolutely not correct. I've already cited the Texas law that was being broken. It's disorderly conduct.

Quote:
PENAL CODE

TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY

CHAPTER 42. DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;
It wasn't over his shoulder, it was cross-slung over his chest, mag in, bolt closed. You can see it in the video.
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Last edited by WarCry; 04-16-2013 at 18:29..
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