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Old 03-27-2013, 11:41   #51
The Fist Of Goodness
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Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
Lets look at the Big picture.....Ammo, Mrap Assault Ambush Armored vehicles, approval to kill American citizens with Drones.....so all joking aside....they refuse to answer to congress.....what's with this ?
They actually did answer congress with regard to the ammunition. On March 23 they submitted a statement explaining the IDIQ contract system and stated that they had purchased 150 million rounds in 2012. They also explained that it translated to approximately 1500 rounds per DHS agent/officer spread over several agencies and was for training and duty carry.

I found this in an article linked from the Drudge report on Sunday. Ironically, the Drudge headline stated that DHS refused to answer congress.

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Old 03-27-2013, 12:13   #52
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Originally Posted by Bolster View Post
That may be the most perfect and succinct example I've ever seen of an obstinate refusal to learn from history. You could disregard every historical lesson ever learned, by saying: "that was then, but this is now." No wonder we humans keep making the same foolish mistakes over and over. It's actually funny. Now I'm laughing too.




Didn't congress get the memo? Only kooks and fools question the intentions of their government and of "Dear Leader." Of course DHS needs billions of rounds of ammo, who are you to question them? We're all safer if the government is armed and nobody else is.* Pass the Soma! A gramme is better than a damn.

(* An uncomfortable fact: The greatest massacres in history have been caused by governments killing their own citizens. Ah, but that was then. This is now.)
The problem with your argument, is that my statement was not that was then, this is now, and your argument, is a gross oversimplification of what happened.

We have a system in place that will not allow someone like a modern Hitler rise to power. That's the entire point of our checks and balances. The distinctions between our chain of command in the military, and the inclusion of civilians, as well as Posse Commitus specifically work towards preventing the use of military like he did.

That is just the tip of the iceberg in the differences.

Your arguments, and statements to support your arguments, are not based in fact. They're emotionally charged distortion a of the truth, intended to conceive and support a fallacious argument.

But you've emotionally invested yourself in your inherently flawed argument, so facts are of little consequence. Continue on about how Obama is poised to become the next hitler. It shows why so many on this forum are viewed as extremists. Anytime anyone disagrees, especially if they understand the truth of the facts you've twisted, you bring out the tired Nazi analogy and anyone who disagrees is an enabler.
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Old 03-27-2013, 15:31   #53
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Well, this was an interesting read.

The first thing I have to say is, aren't some of you ashamed of your your unbelievable ignorance? "DHS Bought 1.6B" vs the reality? If you had any sense of moral decency you would accept that you are too ignorant to vote and step out of the political system.

The real interesting thing to me, about this, is we are talking about ammo. Let's face it. If you are in this room, you already have more than you need. But think about the same thing happening to food - which is far less resilient to a sudden demand shift. The jump in ammo demand is NOTHING compared to what would happen to food.

As a Libertarian, regarding FAscism, let's see what our friend Mr. Dictionary says;

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.


Sounds pretty darn descriptive of any government that continually grows, removes freedoms, imposes more and more restrictive laws, manipulates the economic system for the benefit of corporate contributors, etc...
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Old 03-27-2013, 15:53   #54
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Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
Can you say Nazi Germany??
Can you say, "DUH?"

Because, you haven't a grasp on the situation beause you know nothing but assume everything?

Let me break it down for you.

The Federal Law Enforcement Aacement, otherwise known as FLETC pumps through people who probably have never handled a firearm before. They put a lot of rounds down range to create a proficient shooter before they can graduate.

They have always used JHP's, under the motto, "train like you fight, fight like you train."

Now, for all the entities out there, qualifications are held not once, not twice, but four times per annual year. For a pistol alone that is at least 52 fired rounds, sometimes more depending on the qualification course, Then you have drills. Steel, downed and disabled and all kinds of high speed shooting that goes into a full training day.

Next, you have on top of that duty ammo issued to insure all magazines are filled prior to leaving the range and practice ammo to retain proficiency in addition to that.

Now, multiply that over a couple hundred thousand agents and officers. Now multiply that concept that shotguns and long arms come into the equation.

If you really want to be paranoid consider the hierarchy of ammuntion purchase in the United States:

1. The Military. They purchase billions upon billions of ordinance monthly.

2. Then all the Law Enforcement.

3. Then all the Sky is Falling People.

Ammuntion manufacturers love contracts as that is guaranteed money.

So, the Military gets first whack

Then LEO's

Then the Sky is Falling People.

There was plenty to go around until the Sky is Falling People panicked and overwhelmed a system that was already straining from large contract obligations.

No one is comming to get you. You aren't that imporant.

/Rant over.
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Old 03-27-2013, 16:17   #55
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Posse Commitas - have I spelled that correctly?

Anyway...who supplied the tanks at Waco?


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Old 03-27-2013, 16:27   #56
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That's kind of my point, LEO's being law enforcement officers. I don't believe the SSA needs its own, proprietary law-enforcement division. Investigative component maybe, but law-enforcement? Imo, every federal agency having its own LE division, investigative division, pension-management division, fleet-management division, etc, is both a cause and a symptom of the huge waste we face. That doesn't happen at the state, county, or local level; at least not nearly to the same degree, although it is starting to catch on at the lower levels lately. But we don't have a law-enforcement division in the county sanitation department, a law-enforcement division in the fleet-management department, etc. But at the federal level, we have more than 90 individual law-enforcement agencies.

It's crazy to look up the number of federal agencies that have waivers for armed employees flying commercial airliners. The dept of education, the FDIC (an insurance agency), the parks dept; can't wrap my head around the logic of that. The federal level is just so bloated that even when their actions aren't intentionally repressive, they're still ridiculously and horrifyingly wasteful.

Just the ramblings of another bitter, clinging, angry white male.
Well, aside from Congress and the American people having an historical reluctance to having a single national police agency, there are other issues that make it better to do things this way.

1. Having "investigators" for these agencies who turn their work over to the FBI for enforcement would necessitate a doubling or tripling of the size of the FBI to handle all the work, but wouldn't reduce the size of the SSA, since you would still need the expertise of their investigators.

2. Most of these agencies operate under strict disclosure guidelines, so their employees are allowed to access agency specific data, but it cannot be shared with other agencies. Therefore, an SSA special agent can look at SSA records but may not be able to share them with the FBI.

3. Agency priorities and resources. FBI has a set of priorities. It can change overnight (9-11, for instance). So all of a sudden, no one is working SSA fraud.

4. FBI agents are generalists, while most of the smaller agencies are specialists. It takes a while to season an agent to working some types of cases, especially white collar.

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Old 03-27-2013, 17:31   #57
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...dhs-stocks-up/

This article is interesting. If you read it carefully, it would seem to indicate that the 1.6B rounds are being split only between ICE and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers. FLETC has, from what I can tell, four facilities. If each facility uses 15M rounds per year, as stated, that amounts to 60M rounds per year times five years equals 300M rounds. The remaining 1.3 billion rounds are going to ICE? That amounts to about 86,000 rounds per ICE employee over the next five years.

Either the article is wrong or ICE agents are planning on shooting lots of people over the next five years.

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Old 03-27-2013, 18:12   #58
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Originally Posted by Donn57 View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...dhs-stocks-up/

This article is interesting. If you read it carefully, it would seem to indicate that the 1.6B rounds are being split only between ICE and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers. FLETC has, from what I can tell, four facilities. If each facility uses 15M rounds per year, as stated, that amounts to 60M rounds per year times five years equals 300M rounds. The remaining 1.3 billion rounds are going to ICE? That amounts to about 86,000 rounds per ICE employee over the next five years.

Either the article is wrong or ICE agents are planning on shooting lots of people over the next five years.
Who would they shoot? Please provide a list.
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Old 03-27-2013, 19:22   #59
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Who would they shoot? Please provide a list.
I'm not agreeing, disagreeing, or taking a position here, but I would like to point out that he need not be able to provide a list of people for his point to have merit.
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:15   #60
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Maybe I'm slow or just missed it, but I don't recall seeing documentation of a purchase (or even an RFQ/RFP for that matter) for the 1.6 billion number that keeps popping up. The one RFQ that I saw was for 50-60 million, spread out over five years.
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:20   #61
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Originally Posted by quake View Post
Maybe I'm slow or just missed it, but I don't recall seeing documentation of a purchase (or even an RFQ/RFP for that matter) for the 1.6 billion number that keeps popping up. The one RFQ that I saw was for 50-60 million, spread out over five years.

I think the 1.6 Billion was the maximum total purchase, if they purchased every round they could, every period of every year.
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:38   #62
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Originally Posted by quake View Post
Maybe I'm slow or just missed it, but I don't recall seeing documentation of a purchase (or even an RFQ/RFP for that matter) for the 1.6 billion number that keeps popping up. The one RFQ that I saw was for 50-60 million, spread out over five years.
I have maintained for sometime that the 1.6 billion number is either bad math, or pulled out of thin air. Journalists are not renowned (at least modern journalists) for their attention to detail.

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Old 03-27-2013, 20:44   #63
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Anyway...who supplied the tanks at Waco?


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Good people did, that guy went from one fire to the next. POS
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:53   #64
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I think the 1.6 Billion was the maximum total purchase, if they purchased every round they could, every period of every year.
Could be, but the 50-60 million number was the maximum "up to" amount the one rfq I've seen. It would take 30 of those rfq's, all fulfilled to their maximums, to get near that 1.6 billion number.

Not saying the 1.6 billion is bogus; just saying it seems to get bandied about a bunch and I personally haven't seen any documentation anywhere near that number. Seen less evidence of it than I have of reptoids or roswell aliens, actually; and (much like those) I'd be genuinely interested in seeing something concrete...
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Old 03-27-2013, 21:04   #65
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Could be, but the 50-60 million number was the maximum "up to" amount the one rfq I've seen. It would take 30 of those rfq's, all fulfilled to their maximums, to get near that 1.6 billion number.

Not saying the 1.6 billion is bogus; just saying it seems to get bandied about a bunch and I personally haven't seen any documentation anywhere near that number. Seen less evidence of it than I have of reptoids or roswell aliens, actually; and (much like those) I'd be genuinely interested in seeing something concrete...

Me too.

Did just find this though,

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...not-worry-you/
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:24   #66
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Who would they shoot? Please provide a list.
I don't know. Maybe no one. Why do they need 86,000 rounds per employee regardless?

There is more news today that the FBI is looking to purchase $100M worth of ammo. So obviously, the FBI is purchasing their own ammo, not relying on the 1.6B rounds that DHS may purchase. This would support the first article that splits a possible 1.6B round purchase by DHS between just two agencies over five years.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:37   #67
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Interesting article, but it does beg the question, if there is no way that DHS is actually going to purchase 1.6B rounds of ammo, why the authorization to purchase so much more ammo than they will historically actually need? What is the logic for authorizing a 750M round purchase for an agency (FLETC) that will use less than 100M rounds, according to the article?

And is this the norm? The last time DHS went through this exercise, was it also for seven times more ammo than actually purchased?
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:55   #68
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Whatever you say. This isn't the 30's and we're not Nazis.


But continue making a fool of yourselves, I'm enjoying the laugh.
Yes, but what will YOU do when they order you to confiscate firearms?
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:40   #69
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Yes, but what will YOU do when they order you to confiscate firearms?
I don't see that as a realistic course of action. Alot has been changed in the aftermath of Katrina.

They might still take our guns away, but it won't be by military confiscation.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:02   #70
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I don't see that as a realistic course of action. Alot has been changed in the aftermath of Katrina.

They might still take our guns away, but it won't be by military confiscation.
I hope you are right, and I believe that most in the military would not follow an illegal order. But my question was, What will YOU do?
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:11   #71
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I hope you are right, and I believe that most in the military would not follow an illegal order. But my question was, What will YOU do?

What I think is the correct action at that time.


I can't say one way or the other without a specific scenario.
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Old 03-28-2013, 14:50   #72
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Its OK to disagree with the government and the officials we elect but statements like this demonstrate that you clearly have no idea what Fascism was.
Lol...
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Old 03-29-2013, 13:21   #73
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They can't exactly say the money was spent for condoms for secret service so they are saying its for DHS ammo...
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/...#ixzz2OriHQTSs


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Old 03-29-2013, 18:57   #74
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Overwhelming force is always important.... and ammo is a key ingredient in the recipe.
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Old 03-29-2013, 22:49   #75
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Originally Posted by Donn57 View Post
I don't know. Maybe no one. Why do they need 86,000 rounds per employee regardless?

There is more news today that the FBI is looking to purchase $100M worth of ammo. So obviously, the FBI is purchasing their own ammo, not relying on the 1.6B rounds that DHS may purchase. This would support the first article that splits a possible 1.6B round purchase by DHS between just two agencies over five years.
The FBI is not under DHS so any conclusion you are trying to imply is going to be false.

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