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Old 03-24-2013, 19:14   #861
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Having a SD handgun without a round in the chamber, is like having your car in the garage, with no gas in the tank.

If you even own a gun, you need to know how to carry it loaded and ready to engage, at all times.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:22   #862
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There was an episode within the last, oh, 18 months, where a man's worn leather holster caught the trigger while, IIRC, he was sitting or wiggling around in his car seat. Bullet entered this thigh, pierced a major artery, and he bled out. Not a finger, but a failure in that he should have retired that worn out holster long ago.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:49   #863
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There was an episode within the last, oh, 18 months, where a man's worn leather holster caught the trigger while, IIRC, he was sitting or wiggling around in his car seat. Bullet entered this thigh, pierced a major artery, and he bled out. Not a finger, but a failure in that he should have retired that worn out holster long ago.
If this is the same case that I know about, happened in Northern Virginia, I think in a Springfield Mall parking lot. The mall does not allow the carrying of arms by private citizens so he had left his Glock .40S&W in his glove box. He had taken his children back to their vehicle while his wife was finishing up something in a store. He removed his pistol to reholster nad that is when the AD occured. As I recall, he had the presence of mind to dial 911 but bled out before they could get him to a hospital.

This is a strong argument for two safety factors IF you have removed your pistol for some reason and then wish to reholster. 1) Use a kydex holster or if it has to be leather, make sure that there is are no "holster ears/tabs" that can enter the trigger guard. 2) Get out of the vehicle with your strong side angled outward before you reholster. Then IF you have an AD, at least the bullet will not hit any part of your body.

From time to time, I go to a post office in my neighborhood which is part of a very small strip of connected businesses. I can go armed along the sidewalk, in the parking lot, and up to the outside collection box since all of those areas are common. But if I wish to enter the post office, I must disarm. When I return to my car, I rearm while standing outside of my vehicle with the driver's door open. I do not reholster in the car. And yes, I use a kydex holster.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:04   #864
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I picked up a blood pressure prescription last night from a major brand pharmacy where we have been doing business for years.

Fortunately, my wife didn't take the medication because the pill shape wasn't the same as her usual medicine. As it turned out, the prescription sold to me was a blood pressure medication, but not the right one. A human error was made in filling the order.

We all know and trust our pharmacies because the personnel are highly trained professionals who are responsible and accountable under the law to dispense very specifically prescribed medical products. If they make mistakes, the consequences for patients can be deadly.

I mention this close call as evidence that training, experience, practice, ongoing auditing for accuracy and legal compliance, accountability for malpractice and the best intentions can still result in serious human error.

Those who argue that proper training and paying close attention anytime we handle a gun will eliminate human errors are in denial for the convenience of carrying a SD weapon as they damn well please.
I disagree with this statement. While one is never going to reach 100% certainty, proper procedures (all of them) will go a very long way in reducing accidents with a firearm. Like anything in life, there is a tradeoff; the value one gets for venturing. We drive cars knowing full well that people are injured and killed in them every day. We fly in airplanes for the same reason. We assess the value we get from doing these things against the probability of error leading to disaster, and take the decision that the venture is worth the risk.

Far fewer people are injured or killed every year in accidents with firearms than with cars or pools or ladders or a host of other things. It does come down to what one is willing to accept to get some desired result.

My sidearm has a far greater chance of never hurting anyone due to some accident than just about any other "dangerous tool" I own (and yes, motor vehicles are tools). Doesn't mean 100% but pretty darned close. And that is because of how I treat it and how I treat me when it is in my presence/possession. In a car, if I see a potential accident in my immediate surrounds, I can take evasive action and have done this a number of times over the past 49 years.

With my sidearm once a bullet starts down the barrel, it all depends upon where that barrel is pointed because there ain't going to be any time or chance for evasive moves. This means for me, I must make certain that no bullet begins that trip without my full knowledge and intentional action. This is my goal when I have a firearm in my possession.
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Old 03-25-2013, 13:34   #865
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Where's the love? Is it really that hard to understand and agree-to-disagree?
(1) Any semi-automatic weapon can malfunction for a host of reasons (bad hardware that slipped through the inspection line, user error, or an "act of God" situation).

(2) However, the AD or ND experiences with a Glock handgun drop drastically when compared to other semi-auto weapons...and that is saying something since there are so many Glocks in active service.

(3) You have a decision to make in how you carry your weapon based upon a whole slew of factors including but not limited to common sense, data/statistics, the contexts you find yourself in, and your own "gut feeling."

(4) Whatever you decide to do, BE SAFE, be prepared, and be aware of your surroundings.

(5) It's a free country (at least for now)--let your GT buddies carry however they want and you do the same--end of discussion.

This won't make a lot of sense to some of you, but for most of you it will: I carry C1, I am safe, I am prepared to the best of my knowledge, and I do my level best to have good SA...

Oh, here's one more:

(6) No SD situation ever is the same! Every BG is different, every scenario is different, every one of us is different--and we need to be prepared as much as possible for every realistic scenario (barring an alien invasion from outer space--oh wait, never mind, they're flowing in illegally from from Mexico as we speak).
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Old 03-25-2013, 17:52   #866
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Originally Posted by JohnnyE View Post
There was an episode within the last, oh, 18 months, where a man's worn leather holster caught the trigger while, IIRC, he was sitting or wiggling around in his car seat. Bullet entered this thigh, pierced a major artery, and he bled out. Not a finger, but a failure in that he should have retired that worn out holster long ago.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...rror-revealed/
Carry Issues

Not sure if this is the story or not but this is not an issue of a Glock malfunction but rather an issue of safety on the part of the owner--his holster was not safe due to its age and bad design for this particular weapon...
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Old 03-25-2013, 21:24   #867
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I do believe this thread is valuable just for prompting everyone to evaluate his/her lifestyle circumstances and weigh that evaluation against the statistical probabilities that he/she is more likely to encounter a potential life-or-death situation or an AD/ND event. A bullet can't be recalled once it's launched from its platform and unless it's completely under the control of the operator there's no telling who that bullet will impact.
I agree with what you said.

What is a bit unnerving to me is the "FlashBang Bra Holster" with one in the chamber. The handgun is pointing horizontally to the side when it is drawn and again when it is reinserted into the holster. If there is one in the chamber and an AD occurs during a quick draw or a ND occurs when reinserting the gun into the holster, an innocent bystander could easily be shot because of the horizontal orientation. (Aside from the scary horizontal quick draw by a novice, note how she kinda fumbles while reinserting the gun into the holster twice during the following video.)


OTOH, if there is an AD or ND wearing a waist carry during quick draw or reinsersion, there is more probability that the shooter would shoot him/her self in the thigh, foot or ground and not an innocent bystander.

Sky

Last edited by Skylark; 03-25-2013 at 21:37..
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Old 03-25-2013, 21:48   #868
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Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...rror-revealed/
Carry Issues

Not sure if this is the story or not but this is not an issue of a Glock malfunction but rather an issue of safety on the part of the owner--his holster was not safe due to its age and bad design for this particular weapon...
Spot on true.

It behooves any person who carries a firearm to be constantly aware of the condition of his equipment. Along with this I would add the clothes he wears when armed as well since this sort of mistake can occur with shirt tails, broken belt loops, and a bunch of other items one wears or carries.
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Old 03-25-2013, 21:50   #869
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I just have to shake my head at the stupidity and foolishness of the people that carry with an empty chamber. So many people are so concerned with the potential legal ramification from having a lightened trigger pull weight and how that could enable a plaintiff’s attorney or a prosecutor to argue that a shooting was accidental and/or negligent, yet they do not give a thought to the line of cross-examination along the lines of:

Attorney- Now Mr defendant, why did you not carry your pistol with a round in the chamber like virtually every on duty police officer in this country.

Defendant -Because we cannot “eliminate human errors” I was afraid that the pistol would fire accidently.

“My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and (my) fine motor reflexes go out the window making (me) likely to accidentally place (my) finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing (I was) doing this.” (vandros post #22)

Attorney – So then you admit that you feel that you cannot trust yourself to be safe with a loaded pistol, correct.

Defendant- Yes, the fact that I did not carry my pistol with a round in the chamber was because of my “assessments of” my “abilities.”(vandros post #34).

Attorney – Am I correct then that you do not feel it is safe for you to carry your pistol with a round in the chamber.

Defendant- “The important issue here .... is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands (shake) uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling (my) weapon in less than ideal fashion- no matter how much (I) train... But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes (me) less proficient in handling (my) weapon safely (vandros post #88)

Attorney- And when the plaintiff/victim was shot by you all of those factors that you just testified about were happening to you, correct.



Even a lawyer just out of law school could win this type of case and the defendant’s goose is cooked.

One other thing makes me smile. All those people that have been arguing for C3 carry on this thread, especially those such as vandros and photofeller had better hope that they are never involved in a shooting because any decent attorney in his exercise of due diligence will discover their posts and they will be, to put it mildly, S.O.L.

RJ
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:47   #870
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Yes, one in the chamber. Have carried this way for years. Weapons aren't much good if they're not loaded.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:16   #871
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Well, well my dear sir, your comments quoted above have crossed the rhetorical line a tad bit, I'd say. That last line tells me you are saying those who believe C1 is fine if they are comfortable with it, and feel safe enough to do so without undue risk to themselves and others, are basically being irresponsible, inconsiderate of other's safety, and are engaged in a dangerous and reckless activity.

Have you decided to take off a psychological mask heretofore left in place?

With some of the more recent comments in this thread, and now yours, I'd not be surprised if the moderators don't see fit to lock this thread. I suppose it's also possible that may be your wish.
There is one last thing to correct the record on. The post you criticize here, if read for its true intent, says people who argue that practice and training can eliminate all possibility of human error are wrong; those who close their eyes to the reality of human frailty do so because it serves their own ends.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:45   #872
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This is really kind of simple. Carry your weapon the way you want to carry it. Everything is a risk in life. Driving, flying, etc. If you choose to carry a concealed weapon, get some training first. Practice, then practice some more. Practice drawing(unloaded), practice drawing(unloaded) and after a few months practice drawing and firing(slowly). Build yourself up.
It doesn't matter to me if you carry C1 or C3. It's a free country(right now ) so carry how you are most comfortable.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:22   #873
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Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
Here's what I do, the same as I would do for a duty weapon. Fully load a magazine, place the loaded magazine inside your sidearm while pointing her in a safe direction, chamber one round and then place your sidearm in your holster, next you will remove the magazine while keeping the sidearm in the holster and place an additional round in your magazine. replace magazine in your sidearm.

If your magazine holds 15 rounds, then you should have 15 + 1 round in the chamber. To not put a round in the chamber would be pointless, kind of like not putting gas in the empty tank of your car for a full tank trip.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:36   #874
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To not put a round in the chamber would be pointless, kind of like not putting gas in the empty tank of your car for a full tank trip.
+1000. Same about as what I said. Try this. Have a friend or family member surprise you at "bad breath" distance sometime then think about how long it would take you to chamber a round let alone engage them.
I was surprised once and this hit home really hard. I've carried 1911's, Glocks, Sigs and more either cocked and locked or just ready to pull the trigger. If you are really concerned, carry a Sig or some other DA/SA weapon. Have a round chambered but you now have a longer DA pull to make it go bang.
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Old 03-26-2013, 18:52   #875
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If your magazine holds 15 rounds, then you should have 15 + 1 round in the chamber. To not put a round in the chamber would be pointless, kind of like not putting gas in the empty tank of your car for a full tank trip.
When you drive do you do so in the same way no matter what the road conditions? Do you keep your speed at 70 mph on the Interstate even during an ice storm because the law posts the speed limit at that rate? Or do you vary your driving depending upon the specific conditions?

The driving metaphor is applicable to CCW methods where one determines the conditions prevalent at any given time. In my case it's usually C3 but at times it's C1. If one varies one's vehicular speed according to conditions there's no reason to expect him/her to hold his/her CCW method no matter what the condition, as both firearms and vehicles are potentially deadly machines that can and do get beyond one's control.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:11   #876
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When you drive do you do so in the same way no matter what the road conditions? Do you keep your speed at 70 mph on the Interstate even during an ice storm because the law posts the speed limit at that rate? Or do you vary your driving depending upon the specific conditions?

The driving metaphor is applicable to CCW methods where one determines the conditions prevalent at any given time. In my case it's usually C3 but at times it's C1. If one varies one's vehicular speed according to conditions there's no reason to expect him/her to hold his/her CCW method no matter what the condition, as both firearms and vehicles are potentially deadly machines that can and do get beyond one's control.
I only have one issue with this approach. If you train in both C1 and C3, then you might be causing your muscle memory conflict if/when you need your firearm for SD. I have done all my training in C1, that way when SHTF and I need it, my muscle memory already knows what is needed. Your mind isn't going to be able to function like you want it to as the adrenaline is going to be in overflow.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:48   #877
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I only have one issue with this approach. If you train in both C1 and C3, then you might be causing your muscle memory conflict if/when you need your firearm for SD. I have done all my training in C1, that way when SHTF and I need it, my muscle memory already knows what is needed. Your mind isn't going to be able to function like you want it to as the adrenaline is going to be in overflow.
Yes, this is true. Aside from the fact that almost certainly, you are just never going to know when and from where an attack is going to come. It might be nice if there were such guarantees in life but there just aren't any that I know of.

And then there is the increased danger of handling one's firearm rather frequently as they go from "safe" places to not so safe locales. One would be removing the magazine and the chambered round, and then when they get to a not so safe place, chambering a round and then topping off the magazine with the prior extracted round. Lots of removing and inserting the gun in the holster with all of this. Heck, some scared citizen seeing someone do this might call the police claiming brandishing or something of the sort.

Nope, not something wise to do. Best to stay either unchambered or chambered when out and about. So to our friends here on this thread who are adamant about going C3, I would suggest staying in that condition regardless of where you are. Since you are so concerned about safety, you must believe that the added handling or your sidearm increases the chance of a AD so don't do this. Nothing wrong with carrying C3 if that is your wont. But you would be wise to leave your gun in that state and not be shifting from C3 to C1 and back again as you migrate through your day and activities while out and about.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:05   #878
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Honestly, I think it all comes down to "preference". If you prefer to carry C1 (as I do) then do so. If you prefer not to carry C1, then don't. But for Gods sake, polish your skills on racking a round into that chamber, quickly and safely.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:14   #879
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There was an episode within the last, oh, 18 months, where a man's worn leather holster caught the trigger while, IIRC, he was sitting or wiggling around in his car seat. Bullet entered this thigh, pierced a major artery, and he bled out. Not a finger, but a failure in that he should have retired that worn out holster long ago.

I think you are consolidating two unrelated events. The was an incident where a worn holster caused an unintended discharge, seriously wounding a car seat, the guys pants and underwear. This was a vey close call.

Another case was where a mans wife was returning a movie, while he and their children were waiting in the car. He shot himself in the leg (or hip) while unbuckling his seatbelt ( or putzing around with his gun). He died of blood loss at the scene. (There are two slightly different reports of the event).
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:07   #880
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Yes, this is true. Aside from the fact that almost certainly, you are just never going to know when and from where an attack is going to come. It might be nice if there were such guarantees in life but there just aren't any that I know of.

And then there is the increased danger of handling one's firearm rather frequently as they go from "safe" places to not so safe locales. One would be removing the magazine and the chambered round, and then when they get to a not so safe place, chambering a round and then topping off the magazine with the prior extracted round. Lots of removing and inserting the gun in the holster with all of this. Heck, some scared citizen seeing someone do this might call the police and claiming brandishing or something of the sort.

Nope, not something wise to do. Best to stay either unchambered or chambered when out and about. So to our friends here on this thread who are adamant about going C3, I would suggest staying in that condition regardless of where you are. Since you are so concerned about safety, you must believe that the added handling or your sidearm increases the chance of a AD so don't do this. Nothing wrong with carrying C3 if that is your wont. But you would be wise to leave your gun in that state and not be shifting from C3 to C1 and back again as you migrate through your day and activities while out and about.
Yes, if we knew where the attack would happen, we could avoid that area and thereby avoid the attack. You would think you would be safe in your own home with multiple locks engaged...I found out several years ago that is not the case. I choose to carry C1 because I never know how much time I would have to chamber a round, if one arm is disabled and unable to be used to chamber the round, etc... I am always aware of my surroundings since the attack on me, but that doesn't mean I am always free from being attacked again. I will NOT be a victim again (God willing). I wish I had a gun then, but I was naive and didn't believe anything like that would ever happen to me. If I had been armed and trained as I am now, I wouldn't have to deal with parole hearings every 3 years.
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