GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-25-2013, 10:28   #51
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Jesus wasn't, according to the Bible, human. He also wasn't sinless, according to the Bible.

Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. (Matthew 21:18-19)

Sounds like wrath to me.
Wrath is not necessarily a sin. The fig tree represented Jerusalem. It was full of green leaves, but no fruit. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and as a consequence received desolation.

Daniel 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 10:35   #52
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Wrath is not necessarily a sin.
Good morning Vic.

Justifying our actions is part of the human experience. We make the rules and live up to our own standard.

The law is the ministry of death because no one can live up to it. If you are trying to live up to the laws of the past you will always fall short and end in guilt. The fix is to allow change and be the highest authority through your own justification.

.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org

Last edited by NMG26; 03-25-2013 at 10:35..
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 15:04   #53
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
Good morning Vic.

Justifying our actions is part of the human experience. We make the rules and live up to our own standard.

The law is the ministry of death because no one can live up to it. If you are trying to live up to the laws of the past you will always fall short and end in guilt. The fix is to allow change and be the highest authority through your own justification.

.
The spirit of the law is the standard. People evade the spirit of the law by technicalities. Justification is through Christ and His merits. Our merits cannot justify us.

Mark 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mark 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus gives the above example to show how people were using a technicality to avoid caring for their aged parents. He did not give license to do according to whatever. The fifth commandment is clearly upheld here.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Last edited by Vic Hays; 03-25-2013 at 15:05..
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 15:25   #54
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Wrath is not necessarily a sin...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins


I see "wrath" listed there.



Last edited by hooligan74; 03-25-2013 at 15:26..
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 18:54   #55
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Wrath is not necessarily a sin.
A handy bit of revisionism.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. (Ephesians 4:31)
Quote:
The fig tree represented Jerusalem. It was full of green leaves, but no fruit. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and as a consequence received desolation.
So the fig tree suffered for the actions of others? Are you under the impression that plants control when they produce fruit? Do you think Jesus thought that?
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 19:05   #56
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Sin is what Vic say's it is.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 21:03   #57
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post

Bible definition

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 21:05   #58
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
A handy bit of revisionism.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. (Ephesians 4:31)
So the fig tree suffered for the actions of others? Are you under the impression that plants control when they produce fruit? Do you think Jesus thought that?
Are you for real? Do you think there could be a deeper meaning?

You certainly added the meaning to Jesus actions as being included in your quoted text. I don't see any words signifying that this was wrath or malice.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Last edited by Vic Hays; 03-25-2013 at 21:08..
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 22:07   #59
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Are you for real? Do you think there could be a deeper meaning?
Sure, there could be, but it's also an example of Jesus exhibiting wrath, one of the seven deadly sins as pointed out above.
Quote:
You certainly added the meaning to Jesus actions as being included in your quoted text. I don't see any words signifying that this was wrath or malice.
It has to actually say the words for that meaning to be assigned? Noted. But applying your definition of sin above, Jesus was sinning all the time, since the law was still in effect and He did things like working on the Sabbath and various other transgressions of the law.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."

Last edited by Animal Mother; 03-25-2013 at 22:13..
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 22:15   #60
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Wrath is not necessarily a sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
I don't see any words signifying that this was wrath or malice.
Which is it? Could you pick a position and stick with it for more than a post or two? Just for the sake of the discussion if nothing else.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 07:09   #61
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
The fig tree represented Jerusalem.

Says who? Where does it say that in the Bible?
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:02   #62
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Bible definition

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So wrath is a sin, got it.
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:44   #63
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,776
I'm gonna help Vic out here.

There is such a thing as "righteous indignation".

When you are righteous you can be mad at all those that don't live up to your standard. I often experience this while driving.


.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:00   #64
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Says who? Where does it say that in the Bible?
Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Bible does not waste time with frivolous things like cursing a fig tree without it being a symbolic message. Here is a parable for example.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:08   #65
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
It has to actually say the words for that meaning to be assigned? Noted. But applying your definition of sin above, Jesus was sinning all the time, since the law was still in effect and He did things like working on the Sabbath and various other transgressions of the law.
If it doesn't say those words assigning meaning is interpretation or inference and is not necessarily correct.

Jesus was sinning as the Pharisees interpreted things with their letter if the law interpretation. Jesus when He did those things was showing His spirit of the law interpretation.

Jesus interpretation was correct showing what was lawful.

Luke 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Jesus showed their hypocritical interpretation of Sabbath keeping for what it was, selfishness and pretension on their part.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:16   #66
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Jesus was sinning as the Pharisees interpreted things with their letter if the law interpretation.
Yup. Exactly what we have today. Everyone has a different interpretation. We be heretics every one.

Justifiably so, of course.

.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org

Last edited by NMG26; 03-26-2013 at 10:17..
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:49   #67
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Bible does not waste time with frivolous things like cursing a fig tree without it being a symbolic message. Here is a parable for example.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Those aren't related. God is certainly comparing israel to fruit on the vine in Hosea, it says so. But in Matthew 24 Christ is talking about the end times and how like when the fig tree has leaves you know summer is near... much like you can know the end times are near by the signs he predicts.

Where does it say in the bible that his cursing of the fig tree for not having anything for him to eat is a reference to Israel? If you read further down from the cursing of the fig tree Christ explains clearly his lesson was that if you are strong of faith God will grant you whatever you want... even if it's to curse something apparently. Seems strange Christ would get so angry at a tree for not bearing fruit when it wasn't even the season for such. Little loopy maybe.

You have no biblical support for that interpretation. You're making things up as you go along. Or you're taking the interpretation of someone else who is making things up as they go along.
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 12:56   #68
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
You have no biblical support for that interpretation. You're making things up as you go along. Or you're taking the interpretation of someone else who is making things up as they go along.
It is the way Bible lawyering is done.

Yes, you can pretty much support anything you want to say if you dig deep enough. Who has time for that?

Most just listen to what the preacher says about a verse, and the stretches he makes, and leave it at that. Then repeat on internet board. Much easier that way.

.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 13:07   #69
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 13,329


Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
Most just listen to what the preacher says about a verse, and the stretches he makes, and leave it at that. Then repeat on internet board. Much easier that way.
Exactly, most christians have never read the bible cover to cover in the order it was meant to be read. Not reading it in this manner is pretty much the only way to maintain belief that it is the infallible word of god.
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
Geko45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 13:19   #70
Roering
Sorting nuts
 
Roering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Exactly, most christians have never read the bible cover to cover in the order it was meant to be read. Not reading it in this manner is pretty much the only way to maintain belief that it is the infallible word of god.
In the order that it was meant to be read? Who maintains that it is to be read in a specific order?
__________________
=================================
Warranty voiding
Roering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 14:23   #71
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roering View Post
In the order that it was meant to be read? Who maintains that it is to be read in a specific order?
I don't know that the books in the Bible were meant to be read any certain order but the logical assumption is that each book was meant to be read front to back rather than cherry picking the verses one likes and making them say what the reader wants them to say. If the latter is the case, then the Bible is completely meaningless because it can be made to say anything.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 23:26   #72
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
If it doesn't say those words assigning meaning is interpretation or inference and is not necessarily correct.
Are you the same Vic Hays who just argued that a fig tree stood for Jerusalem, despite no such statement in the text? Are you the same person who goes on about days meaning years and centuries for interpreting prophecies?
Quote:
Jesus was sinning as the Pharisees interpreted things with their letter if the law interpretation. Jesus when He did those things was showing His spirit of the law interpretation.
What did Jesus say about the law?
Quote:
Jesus interpretation was correct showing what was lawful.
What basis do you have for this claim, other than that you happen to believe it?
Quote:
Luke 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Jesus showed their hypocritical interpretation of Sabbath keeping for what it was, selfishness and pretension on their part.
How does this show them to be hypocritical? It's pretty clear from the scripture and later Jewish writings that to do what Jesus describes would violate the prohibitions on work.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 08:36   #73
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Are you the same Vic Hays who just argued that a fig tree stood for Jerusalem, despite no such statement in the text?
And if we follow that metaphor all the way out... what was it of Jerusalem that Jesus wanted to devour that it wasn't providing? Willing souls maybe? Could this be used to subtantiate my theory that God feeds on our souls but only willing souls nourish him?
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 12:21   #74
Vic Hays
Senior Member
 
Vic Hays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: My home is in heaven
Posts: 10,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
What did Jesus say about the law?
What basis do you have for this claim, other than that you happen to believe it?
How does this show them to be hypocritical? It's pretty clear from the scripture and later Jewish writings that to do what Jesus describes would violate the prohibitions on work.
Rightly understanding Scripture requires inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

Rightly understanding Scripture also requires that you diligently search them to understand Truth rather than depending on you own opinion and intuition as to what the Truth is.

You are in error for your statement that what Jesus describes is a violation of the prohibitions on work because of your ignorance of Bible. The prohibition against work is not a prohibition of helping others, in fact this is what The Lord delights in.

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isaiah 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isaiah 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy reward.
__________________
Vic Hays

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Vic Hays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 14:04   #75
NMG26
Senior Member
 
NMG26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 4,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Rightly understanding Scripture requires inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
This is just a way to keep personal preferences as Lord. "Our group has the Holy Spirit's lead on this".

When I read scripture and receive inspiration it often has nothing to do with common and accepted interpretation.

The common and accepted interpretation does not trump the spirits guide from within.

This is where we as a whole miss the mark, attempting to keep everyone on the same page. Heresy is to insist that one party has all the answers. Sectarian, heresy, party spirit, are all the same thing.

Inspiration is in the moment for the issue at hand.
__________________
Bickford Schmeckler: ******* tyranny of logic!
http://tentmaker.org
NMG26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:16.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,038
358 Members
680 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42