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Old 03-21-2013, 14:16   #51
Python-Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
It's been done to death, but here it goes again:

By my math, 1.6B rounds will last less than 6 yrs at current consumption.

Customs, Border Patrol, Secret Service and Coast Guard account for about 150,000 gun carrying officers/agents (all under DHS).

Qualifications are shot quarterly (4x per year), and each qual includes an ammo issue of 250 rds per handgun, 100 rounds per rifle, and 10 rounds per shotgun. Smimple math puts this at 1000 rounds/ year/ handgun, 400 rounds/year/rifle, 40 rounds/year/shotgun.

Each agent has a handgun. That's (1000 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 150,000,000 (150M).

Most agents also qualify with both the rifle and shotgun. That's (440 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 66,000,000 (66M) rounds.

Special unit agents and managers are issued a second handgun. Let's shoot on the low side and say 30%. That's another (1000/year) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M) rounds.

Special units can also carry submachineguns, designated marksman rifles, etc. Low estimate of 30% use these, so that's That's another (1000/yr) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M).

Let's add that up shall we? 150M + 66M + 45M + 45M = 306M per year, JUST FOR QUALS. By my math, it takes only 5.22 years at that consumption level to burn through 1.6 Billion rounds.

Check my math please.



And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.


So yeah, a five-year contract for ammo is SUCH a panic warning flag.




And PocketProtector has no idea what he is talking about making the ridiculous claim that this amount of ammo would last "101 years at current DHS consumption rate." Way to spread the misinformation.

I dare you to show the math behind your outlandish figures.
With all due respect, the OP stated 9mm & 40cal only!
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:34   #52
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Originally Posted by Python-Hunter View Post
With all due respect, the OP stated 9mm & 40cal only!

With all due respect, the ACTUAL contract was for "mostly" 9mm & 40 cal.

Even if I leave out the rifle and shotty ammo, that's still 240M rounds/year, which equals 6.6 years of pistol ammo (because the subguns and backup pistols use, you guessed it, pistol ammo).

So the rifle and shotgun ammo is negligible in the overall order of magnitude here. Oh, right. Your point was that you're unconcerned with applying math yourself and just want to be a jackwagon who points out minor details that have little to no effect on the outcome of the topic being discussed. Gotcha. Mission accomplished.
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Old 03-21-2013, 15:19   #53
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Bulk69stang - they only purchased handgun rounds in 9mm and 40 s&w under this contract, so even if I accept your over exagerations, your bottom line is somewhat off. Not everyone who has a gun must qualify 4X per year and if they were given 250 rounds each, I know people in agencies who do not like to even shoot guns and shoot much less than that the entire year. Also the number of agents keeps growing. Last time it was 135,000 taken from Homeland security website, but that probably does not count the black ops.

Would you shoot an American citizen?
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Old 03-21-2013, 15:27   #54
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.
This scares me even more that we would have agents so dumb they would not know the difference between practice ammo and what they should be carrying, and because of this stupidity I pay higher taxes.
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Old 03-21-2013, 16:41   #55
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This scares me even more that we would have agents so dumb they would not know the difference between practice ammo and what they should be carrying, and because of this stupidity I pay higher taxes.
So true!
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Old 03-21-2013, 17:19   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
With all due respect, the ACTUAL contract was for "mostly" 9mm & 40 cal.

Even if I leave out the rifle and shotty ammo, that's still 240M rounds/year, which equals 6.6 years of pistol ammo (because the subguns and backup pistols use, you guessed it, pistol ammo).

So the rifle and shotgun ammo is negligible in the overall order of magnitude here. Oh, right. Your point was that you're unconcerned with applying math yourself and just want to be a jackwagon who points out minor details that have little to no effect on the outcome of the topic being discussed. Gotcha. Mission accomplished.
The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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Old 03-21-2013, 17:31   #57
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The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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Winner.

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Old 03-21-2013, 17:45   #58
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Originally Posted by The Fist Of Goodness View Post
The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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A second on that winner.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:56   #59
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Would you shoot an American citizen?
Jim,

From a man who has dedicated my entire adult life in service to my country this is stepping over the line. Just a heads up some of us might have already SHOT an American Citizen while being a law enforcement officer.

Just for your info dangerous criminals are American Citizens if they legally live in our country. I normally read through all your replies and have a level of respect for you but posts like this will make me drop that level faster than you can post them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fist Of Goodness View Post
The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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I agree with this post and the fact that we are now down to calling people names or questioning integrity or intelligence means we are at the end of this one and need to wait for a new one.

The 135,000 posted above that I posted did not include the USSS and neither did the ammo bids listed above with exception of the few HK MP5s they still have in service as they carry Sig 229 chambered in .357sig and a lot carry FN P90s instead of MP5s. I am not sure how many USSS are employeed but they do not issue 9mm or 40 S&W handguns and buy a very large single purchase of 357sig per year and shoot a great deal of ammo.

Tanks? Drones? Yea they bother me, but the ammo purchased does not.
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Old 03-22-2013, 21:47   #60
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Yep this is getting out of hand now.

Time for the lock.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:53   #61
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Yep this is getting out of hand now.

Time for the lock.
Not locked yet, as of 1352 EDT 24Mar13
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Old 03-25-2013, 16:50   #62
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Exactly How Many Rounds is 1.6 Billion?
Enough to fight a 20-year full-scale war according to military experts, leading directly to the question of why an internal US agency would need that much ammunition unless to suppress a restive population.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:31   #63
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32 million 50-round boxes!
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Old 03-26-2013, 13:23   #64
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Enough to fight a 20-year full-scale war according to military experts, leading directly to the question of why an internal US agency would need that much ammunition unless to suppress a restive population.
Think about the number. There are what 100M gun owners. If everyone bought just 100rds of ammo, 1B rounds. It's not that much when you think about it. I think my math is right.
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Old 03-26-2013, 13:34   #65
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Enough to fight a 20-year full-scale war according to military experts, leading directly to the question of why an internal US agency would need that much ammunition unless to suppress a restive population.
That isn't "AN" agency.

Look at the numbers of armed personnel in ALL of the agencies involved and their training and duty ammo needs.

Finally, when you have done that you might want to admit that you researched enough to discover that it is a "Contract to potentially buy" Nobody has bought that amount it just locks in product and supply for the length of the contract, It is SOP for many things involving Government contacts.

If you saw the contracts for toilet paper you would probably come to the conclusion that the evil GVT Ninjas were planning on weakening the populace through inflicted Dysentery.

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:07   #66
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Think about the number. There are what 100M gun owners. If everyone bought just 100rds of ammo, 1B rounds. It's not that much when you think about it. I think my math is right.
I wonder how many handgun owners there are in the USA?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:38   #67
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How many trucks would it take to haul 32 million 50 round boxes? What would be the total weight of 32 million 50 round boxes? Just trying to get a visual on the amount of ammo ordered.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:31   #68
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How many trucks would it take to haul 32 million 50 round boxes? What would be the total weight of 32 million 50 round boxes? Just trying to get a visual on the amount of ammo ordered.
There is no such "order" or purchase.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:54   #69
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Considering that the vast majority of the folks on this board have a healthy distrust of the government/administration, the fact that over 50% of the post say this isn't a big deal is very telling.....
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Old 04-01-2013, 13:50   #70
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Considering that the vast majority of the folks on this board have a healthy distrust of the government/administration, the fact that over 50% of the post say this isn't a big deal is very telling.....
Maybe we are all being hoodwinked, but DHS could CONTRACT to purchase up to a quadrillion rounds of ammo at a given price, but if they only purchase 150 million (roughly 1500 rds per agent) , what is the problem?

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Old 04-01-2013, 14:24   #71
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Maybe we are all being hoodwinked, but DHS could CONTRACT to purchase up to a quadrillion rounds of ammo at a given price, but if they only purchase 150 million (roughly 1500 rds per agent) , what is the problem?

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I am having a hard time following the logic trail involved.

IF this contract is public information, therefore not in "secret" and it is responsible for the shortage of a limited number of calibers, then where is the contract with ALL of the manufacturers that is causing a shortage of .22 rimfire?

To put it simply, if you can find a contract that is supposed to be responsible for the lack of .40 S&W show me the contract that is responsible for the shortage of .22 LR

How in the world could DHS possibly keep all the employees of the ammo companies and everyone the know silent on this scheme?

What is DHS doing with all the .32 auto ammo, the .38 special, the .257 Roberts, even the 30-30 that is scarce in some areas?
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Old 04-01-2013, 14:27   #72
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Maybe we are all being hoodwinked, but DHS could CONTRACT to purchase up to a quadrillion rounds of ammo at a given price, but if they only purchase 150 million (roughly 1500 rds per agent) , what is the problem?

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No problem at all. I am glad the government is saving tax payor money by buying in bulk.
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Old 04-01-2013, 14:48   #73
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Enough to put 5 rounds into every human being living in the country they are supposed to be protecting.
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Old 04-01-2013, 15:35   #74
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Enough to put 5 rounds into every human being living in the country they are supposed to be protecting.
Amazing.

How many rounds have you fired in practice and how many people have you shot?
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Old 04-01-2013, 20:45   #75
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How about some actual numbers regarding ammunition numbers?

Probably not going to help keep the conspiracy buffs excited, though. Oh well ....

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/...c-fd099b51c966

Follow the links for the 2 DHS responses in the website link,
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