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Old 03-19-2013, 06:59   #41
CitizenOfDreams
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
They can shoot all of us 5 times each, or gun owners 15 times each.
Nowhere near enough. It takes 100+ rounds just to shoot a truck with two women.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:23   #42
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Originally Posted by PocketProtector View Post
101 years at current DHS consumption rate.
My understanding is (last time I seen something posted) was the DHS accounts US wide and agency wide for almost 90,000 employees that carry a weapon and almost 200,000 total.

They use to the best of my understanding (I know the USSS uses duty ammo for practice) duty ammo for practice.

90,000 for a 100 round quarterly so 90,000 employees that qualify 4 times a year use 400 rounds per year. 90,000 x 400 right? Let someone else do the math, might BLOW THEIR MINDS!

Then you will need a box per employee just to load the magazine in their gun and the two additional magazines on their belts so another 50 rounds per employee x 90,000.

So not including any other type of firearms training AT ALL you can see the math is pretty underwhelming to be honest. They might have needed to buy more to be honest. If you said the employees used an additional 500 rounds each per year for training its easy to see how ammo would go quick.

Edited to add: Google (as reliable as it is) actually shows the armed DHS as being close to 135,000 not 90,000. Again do the math.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:55   #43
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
My understanding is (last time I seen something posted) was the DHS accounts US wide and agency wide for almost 90,000 employees that carry a weapon and almost 200,000 total.

They use to the best of my understanding (I know the USSS uses duty ammo for practice) duty ammo for practice.

90,000 for a 100 round quarterly so 90,000 employees that qualify 4 times a year use 400 rounds per year. 90,000 x 400 right? Let someone else do the math, might BLOW THEIR MINDS!

Then you will need a box per employee just to load the magazine in their gun and the two additional magazines on their belts so another 50 rounds per employee x 90,000.

So not including any other type of firearms training AT ALL you can see the math is pretty underwhelming to be honest. They might have needed to buy more to be honest. If you said the employees used an additional 500 rounds each per year for training its easy to see how ammo would go quick.

Edited to add: Google (as reliable as it is) actually shows the armed DHS as being close to 135,000 not 90,000. Again do the math.
Well doing the math 135K * 400 = 54M
135K * 50 = 6.7M
135K * 40 = 5.4M (the rounds carried)

The total would be 66.1M and that equals only 4.1% of the 1.6 billion round order. I do not think they will have a need to buy more.

I did not include your 500 round per year training but if I did, that would only be an additional 6.75M for a total of 8.3% of the 1.6B order.

Last edited by PghJim; 03-19-2013 at 11:03..
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:05   #44
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The war started before we got involved. The stat I found included the manufacture of small arms ammo from mid 39 to 45. It was not just US manufacture.
Yes WWII ran from 02Sep39 (Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, and it ended on 04Sep45 (Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri). But active US combat involvement (aside from ASW in the Atlantic) began at Pearl Harbor, HI on 07Dec41.
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:07   #45
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Well doing the math 135K * 400 = 54M
135K * 50 = 6.7M
135K * 40 = 5.4M (the rounds carried)

The total would be 66.1M and that equals only 4.1% of the 1.6 billion round order. I do not think they will have a need to buy more.

I did not include your 500 round per year training but if I did, that would only be an additional 6.75M for a total of 8.3% of the 1.6B order.
Per year, so 54 million rounds per year in just qualification, another 67.5 million rounds per year for additional training. So about 112 million rounds per year on just training and qualification of the 135,000 armed people in DHS. Not sure how the contractors they hire are armed so I won't speak on it. So since they are also not getting all 1.6 billion rounds at one time (if they even order that many) and will likely get them in yearly blocks the number is completely in line.

These numbers are pure speculation of course, I have no idea how many rounds are used/issued to officers but based on my experience being an administrative police officer that sees all purchases in my department across my desk prior to purchase I do understand the process. They have a wide open budget and I tell you if we had a wide open budget officers would be able to take at the very least 50-100 rounds home per week if they desired for additional trigger time and training.
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:22   #46
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
Per year, so 54 million rounds per year in just qualification, another 67.5 million rounds per year for additional training. So about 120 million rounds per year on just training and qualification of the 135,000 armed people in DHS. Not sure how the contractors they hire are armed so I won't speak on it. So since they are also not getting all 1.6 billion rounds at one time (if they even order that many) and will likely get them in yearly blocks the number is completely in line.

These numbers are pure speculation of course, I have no idea how many rounds are used/issued to officers but based on my experience being an administrative police officer that sees all purchases in my department across my desk prior to purchase I do understand the process. They have a wide open budget and I tell if we had a wide open budget officers would be able to take at the very least 50-100 rounds home per week if they desired for additional trigger time and training.

Hey, I understand what you are thinking, but most people do not have a concept of what a Billion means. You have a lot of practice ammo, probably because others do not practice. It has been my experience that the majority of LE do not practice regularly. But in any event, maybe you are right, but it would take 11 years to use up the ammo in the math I performed on the other guy example. Also, why have they not needed it the past, along with 7,000 automatic M4's, a couple of thousand of converted tanks, many bullet proof toll boths, etc. I am not a tin foil guy, but I would like to get a believable explanation.

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Old 03-19-2013, 13:28   #47
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Hey, I understand what you are thinking, but most people do not have a concept of what a Billion means. You have a lot of practice ammo, probably because others do not practice. It has been my experience that the majority of LE do not practice regularly. But in any event, maybe you are right, but it would take 11 years to use up the ammo in the math I performed on the other guy example. Also, why have they not needed it the past, along with 7,000 automatic M4's, a couple of thousand of converted tanks, many bullet proof toll boths, etc. I am not a tin foil guy, but I would like to get a believable explanation.
I do not disagree with you on these topics trust me, just saying its not out in left field on the ammo as much as folks might think. I know agencies purchase ammo and automatic rifles probably every year and probably dozens of agencies but until the issues with our firearms and 2nd being threatened like it is now those purchases were never an issue.

That being said I do not expect we will get an explanation until it is apparent and right out in the open.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:45   #48
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1.6 billion is a major 24 year war, according to DOD
The liberal democrats wouldn't allow a war to last even half that length. Remember our betrayal of South Vietnam? I was there.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:27   #49
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It's been done to death, but here it goes again:

By my math, 1.6B rounds will last less than 6 yrs at current consumption.

Customs, Border Patrol, Secret Service and Coast Guard account for about 150,000 gun carrying officers/agents (all under DHS).

Qualifications are shot quarterly (4x per year), and each qual includes an ammo issue of 250 rds per handgun, 100 rounds per rifle, and 10 rounds per shotgun. Smimple math puts this at 1000 rounds/ year/ handgun, 400 rounds/year/rifle, 40 rounds/year/shotgun.

Each agent has a handgun. That's (1000 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 150,000,000 (150M).

Most agents also qualify with both the rifle and shotgun. That's (440 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 66,000,000 (66M) rounds.

Special unit agents and managers are issued a second handgun. Let's shoot on the low side and say 30%. That's another (1000/year) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M) rounds.

Special units can also carry submachineguns, designated marksman rifles, etc. Low estimate of 30% use these, so that's That's another (1000/yr) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M).

Let's add that up shall we? 150M + 66M + 45M + 45M = 306M per year, JUST FOR QUALS. By my math, it takes only 5.22 years at that consumption level to burn through 1.6 Billion rounds.

Check my math please.



And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.


So yeah, a five-year contract for ammo is SUCH a panic warning flag.




And PocketProtector has no idea what he is talking about making the ridiculous claim that this amount of ammo would last "101 years at current DHS consumption rate." Way to spread the misinformation.

I dare you to show the math behind your outlandish figures.

Last edited by blk69stang; 03-21-2013 at 13:35..
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:12   #50
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Yes WWII ran from 02Sep39 (Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, and it ended on 04Sep45 (Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri). But active US combat involvement (aside from ASW in the Atlantic) began at Pearl Harbor, HI on 07Dec41.
Japan was hostile in the Pacific/Asia for years before Poland. Whether that constituted a "World War" is up for interpretation.
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:16   #51
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
It's been done to death, but here it goes again:

By my math, 1.6B rounds will last less than 6 yrs at current consumption.

Customs, Border Patrol, Secret Service and Coast Guard account for about 150,000 gun carrying officers/agents (all under DHS).

Qualifications are shot quarterly (4x per year), and each qual includes an ammo issue of 250 rds per handgun, 100 rounds per rifle, and 10 rounds per shotgun. Smimple math puts this at 1000 rounds/ year/ handgun, 400 rounds/year/rifle, 40 rounds/year/shotgun.

Each agent has a handgun. That's (1000 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 150,000,000 (150M).

Most agents also qualify with both the rifle and shotgun. That's (440 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 66,000,000 (66M) rounds.

Special unit agents and managers are issued a second handgun. Let's shoot on the low side and say 30%. That's another (1000/year) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M) rounds.

Special units can also carry submachineguns, designated marksman rifles, etc. Low estimate of 30% use these, so that's That's another (1000/yr) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M).

Let's add that up shall we? 150M + 66M + 45M + 45M = 306M per year, JUST FOR QUALS. By my math, it takes only 5.22 years at that consumption level to burn through 1.6 Billion rounds.

Check my math please.



And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.


So yeah, a five-year contract for ammo is SUCH a panic warning flag.




And PocketProtector has no idea what he is talking about making the ridiculous claim that this amount of ammo would last "101 years at current DHS consumption rate." Way to spread the misinformation.

I dare you to show the math behind your outlandish figures.
With all due respect, the OP stated 9mm & 40cal only!
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:34   #52
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With all due respect, the OP stated 9mm & 40cal only!

With all due respect, the ACTUAL contract was for "mostly" 9mm & 40 cal.

Even if I leave out the rifle and shotty ammo, that's still 240M rounds/year, which equals 6.6 years of pistol ammo (because the subguns and backup pistols use, you guessed it, pistol ammo).

So the rifle and shotgun ammo is negligible in the overall order of magnitude here. Oh, right. Your point was that you're unconcerned with applying math yourself and just want to be a jackwagon who points out minor details that have little to no effect on the outcome of the topic being discussed. Gotcha. Mission accomplished.
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Old 03-21-2013, 15:19   #53
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Bulk69stang - they only purchased handgun rounds in 9mm and 40 s&w under this contract, so even if I accept your over exagerations, your bottom line is somewhat off. Not everyone who has a gun must qualify 4X per year and if they were given 250 rounds each, I know people in agencies who do not like to even shoot guns and shoot much less than that the entire year. Also the number of agents keeps growing. Last time it was 135,000 taken from Homeland security website, but that probably does not count the black ops.

Would you shoot an American citizen?
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Old 03-21-2013, 15:27   #54
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And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.
This scares me even more that we would have agents so dumb they would not know the difference between practice ammo and what they should be carrying, and because of this stupidity I pay higher taxes.
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Old 03-21-2013, 16:41   #55
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This scares me even more that we would have agents so dumb they would not know the difference between practice ammo and what they should be carrying, and because of this stupidity I pay higher taxes.
So true!
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Old 03-21-2013, 17:19   #56
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With all due respect, the ACTUAL contract was for "mostly" 9mm & 40 cal.

Even if I leave out the rifle and shotty ammo, that's still 240M rounds/year, which equals 6.6 years of pistol ammo (because the subguns and backup pistols use, you guessed it, pistol ammo).

So the rifle and shotgun ammo is negligible in the overall order of magnitude here. Oh, right. Your point was that you're unconcerned with applying math yourself and just want to be a jackwagon who points out minor details that have little to no effect on the outcome of the topic being discussed. Gotcha. Mission accomplished.
The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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Old 03-21-2013, 17:31   #57
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The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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Winner.

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Old 03-21-2013, 17:45   #58
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The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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A second on that winner.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:56   #59
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Would you shoot an American citizen?
Jim,

From a man who has dedicated my entire adult life in service to my country this is stepping over the line. Just a heads up some of us might have already SHOT an American Citizen while being a law enforcement officer.

Just for your info dangerous criminals are American Citizens if they legally live in our country. I normally read through all your replies and have a level of respect for you but posts like this will make me drop that level faster than you can post them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fist Of Goodness View Post
The time that you put into typing your explanations will be time you will never get back. And it won't change their opinions because they (despite their feigned outrage) want this to be true.

I only recently learned this lesson myself (several weeks ago on the same topic). I went through the same math and tried to document the actual contracts. It doesn't make a difference. When this thread dies, another will break out, like a bad case of crabs.

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I agree with this post and the fact that we are now down to calling people names or questioning integrity or intelligence means we are at the end of this one and need to wait for a new one.

The 135,000 posted above that I posted did not include the USSS and neither did the ammo bids listed above with exception of the few HK MP5s they still have in service as they carry Sig 229 chambered in .357sig and a lot carry FN P90s instead of MP5s. I am not sure how many USSS are employeed but they do not issue 9mm or 40 S&W handguns and buy a very large single purchase of 357sig per year and shoot a great deal of ammo.

Tanks? Drones? Yea they bother me, but the ammo purchased does not.
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Old 03-22-2013, 21:47   #60
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Yep this is getting out of hand now.

Time for the lock.
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