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Old 03-21-2013, 14:14   #61
Henry Kane
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Doing the right thing, isn't limited to those who have sworn to do a certain job.


Its the right thing to do.
I agree with this comment, 100%. The thing is, the right thing is vastly subjective, and cannot possibly be preconceived (unless you're psychic...like...really, really psychic). More realistically, there is rarely one right thing, but a list of things, more and less right. Confounding this reality further: self-defense scenarios are not often conducive to deep contemplation over which actions are most or least right.
People are going to handle these things according to their mental constitution, instinct, muscle memory (if any exists), and possibly a blessing or two. I don't care what your work uniform looks like.

This isn't aimed at any particular person, but ^that^ said, isn't it kind of a waste of energy to argue, or worse, judge others over what they think they might do in a public crisis scenario? Granted, it's not as silly as making flat-out claims about what one would do, but a strange exercise, nonetheless.

Take care.

Last edited by Henry Kane; 03-21-2013 at 14:17..
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:57   #62
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
You keep tossing that line in hopes of hooking onto some sort of argument. But no one has said, advocated, or suggesting placing thier family in harms way at all. Well, except you.


Also, ego has nothing to do with right.
I think what he was getting at is that too often on the internets when people support their notion they portray the other side's decision in the worst possible light.

ie if one acts they are recklessly spraying bullets about a crowded public place while caring nothing for the well being of their families because they are trying to be a hero

vs.

if one doesn't act they are going to take a bullet in the ear while groveling meekly with their wife and kids because they were too much a sissy to fight back.


Typically both extremes are off base.
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:04   #63
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First, I have always disliked the term “sheepdog” or “sheep” as it is used in gunforums. I would consider myself nothing more than armed sheep by that definition. As I get older I also realize that “what if scenario” can be used to give scenarios additional thought and develop possible/probable course of action depending on the many possible variables.

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Here's something I don't believe I've seen mentioned....


I run out to the store, whatever, leave my wife and son at home. In the store, I've checked out and close to the door as a guy at the other end of the store opens fire, screaming and just blasting away. I SEE it happen, there's no question at all of who the bad guy is.

I can draw a fire arm and try to get close enough to drop the bad guy, or I can get out the door and find cover to call the police, whatever. If I move on the guy, I could very well be killed.

Personally, I would hit the door because I don't want to widow my wife and leave my son without his father. I frankly don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me making that choice. A CCW permit is not a cape and tights. It's not a badge that makes me law enforcement, and it's not a contract with society that I'll jump in front of a bullet for anyone outside of my family.

Selfish? Maybe, but I'm not answerable to anyone other than to take care of my family. That mean putting them ahead of me, and me ahead of anyone else.
I know the scenario was clear in your mind when posted; however, what is the probability of escape without injury? There could be times where no action would be just as dangerous as action.

Too many variables in most scenarios for me to tell whether I would feel it is prudent to act or not act. Is the BG aiming/shooting at people? Is there a clear shot without me being the one that injures an innocent person? How big is the store and how many people in it? Does the possible escape route present a danger of being trampled on as others escape? A missed clear shot can mean the end of it all just the same. I pray I never find myself in a position whereI need to make such a decision and pray to make the right one if the time ever comes.

Yes, my first commitment is to my family above all as well. Yes, I believe my first instinct in a situation where firearms are involved is to get help and leave those better trained to handle it. No, I’m not so sure if I would take no action if all is clear in mind and I believe action is what the situation calls for and my choices are limited.

Overall and in the general sense, I do agree with the OP, the devil is in the details though.

The more I learn, the more I know I won’t know for sure.... unless I’m there and then.

….and thank you for your service!
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:44   #64
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More like a lesbian cougar.



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Old 02-16-2014, 09:58   #65
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I'm pretty much just an old guy out for a walk anymore and I feel I'm a bit wiser for the time I've put in.

Would I risk injury to help someone out of a burning car? Sure.

If I had a life preserver would I swim it out to someone who is drowning? Sure.

Would I intervene in a shooting situation to save a child, someone who is infirm, or elderly? Yes.

Would I intervene on behalf of a police officer? Yes.

I live in a shall issue state, so would I intervene in a shots fired situation to assist an adult man or woman who has chosen to be an unarmed victim? No.

My wife decided that she doesn't have what it takes to pull the trigger on someone and while I would hope someone would rescue her, I could never hold them responsible for her decision.

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Old 02-16-2014, 11:39   #66
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I watched about 30 seconds of the vid and knew that this guy was just trying to justify his lack of courage. I can respect a coward as long as he is honest about whom he is.

What I don't respect is someone who develops an attitude and a philosophy to justify why they are a chicken****.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:43   #67
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It depends. I figure I won't know until I'm "there"

Hopefully "there" never occurs, but you never know.

Also I've intervened twice in situations that weren't strictly 'mine'. Neither involved firearms. In general I felt like I did the right thing. But I'm not as inclined to go out of my way now as I did then. For one, those two times were sort of part of my job (or at least I felt it was part of my job at the time).
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:44   #68
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People really need to reread Grossman and then understand life is not always so clear.

It is best to think of your plans prior to an event. I personally know that off duty I will have a different reaction to a Beslan if my family is present vs not. Grossman himself even talked about that at his seminar I attended.
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:12   #69
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Quote:
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I watched about 30 seconds of the vid and knew that this guy was just trying to justify his lack of courage. I can respect a coward as long as he is honest about whom he is.

What I don't respect is someone who develops an attitude and a philosophy to justify why they are a chicken****.
I've been in a couple of fights with stuff that you can't buy at your local gun store, I'm pretty sure I'm not afraid to get into another. What I am is realistic.

Rolling up into a firefight in progress, it can be hard to tell who the good guys are, even when both sides are wearing uniforms. Who you are supposed to be shooting at has been a mistake made by experienced law enforcement officers and soldiers. I won't post any links, because all of those are sad stories. Picking sides in a shooting can be a challenge.

I am very aware of wound ballistics, maybe even to the point of being a subject matter expert, and even though I think the .40 S&W is a pretty good pistol round, there is a reason it is not a popular cartridge for elk or deer. Generally speaking, long guns beat handguns in a fight. What is cover for the guy with the long gun may only be concealment for the guy with the handgun. I know that even with mortal wounds, people can still fight for a while. Knowing your limitations, and the limitations of your equipment is an important skill.

No matter how justified you are in using deadly force, in Texas, you are going to go to a grand jury if you kill someone. In other states, you are still open to civil liabilities. This story is what I consider a well justified use of deadly force, that cost the guy that did the right thing a lot more than I thought was fair, but that's the way it went. Even if you save the life of a police officer, the police may not even come to your aid when you are being sued into financial ruin.
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html


There are millions of possible variables, it's difficult to predict what you would do in any given situation. A change of just a couple of details could make the smart move to discreetly leave through an exit with your family instead of rushing into a fight.

Now, all of that being said, I would probably lean toward trying to help someone. I would not fault someone for choosing to take care of only themselves either.
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:33   #70
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As far as the military and families go, I believe in the old adage that if Uncle Sam were to want you to have a family, he would have issued it to you.
I have a hand receipt around here somewhere in an old black briefcase, my Cadre SGT had me sign for my wife after we got married. (Both of us were active duty in AIT). She didn't think it was funny.
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:29   #71
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LOL

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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:50   #72
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There is a video around here someplace from a security cam in walmart. A guy comes in with a knife and starts repeatedly stabbing his ex-wife, working on murdering her. A guy with a ccw starts putting bullets on the badguy. The woman survived and is very greatful to the ccw holder.

If I was in the same situation I would like to be able to help the woman who is getting stabbed to death right in front of me. If I said "it's not my problem" and walked away, I wouldn't sleep well anymore.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:12   #73
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I'm pretty much just an old guy out for a walk anymore and I feel I'm a bit wiser for the time I've put in.

Would I risk injury to help someone out of a burning car? Sure.

If I had a life preserver would I swim it out to someone who is drowning? Sure.

Would I intervene in a shooting situation to save a child, someone who is infirm, or elderly? Yes.

Would I intervene on behalf of a police officer? Yes.

I live in a shall issue state, so would I intervene in a shots fired situation to assist an adult man or woman who has chosen to be an unarmed victim? No.

My wife decided that she doesn't have what it takes to pull the trigger on someone and while I would hope someone would rescue her, I could never hold them responsible for her decision.

Regards,
Happyguy
But would you think highly of them if they did rescue her or at least died or was injured trying?
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:31   #74
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But would you think highly of them if they did rescue her or at least died or was injured trying?
Absolutely! I have nothing but praise for people that are willing to make sacrifices for others.

But If you are an adult man or woman that has decided to be a victim, you are responsible for your own circumstance.

Besides, if you rely on others for your safety you are likely to be severely disappointed.

Regards,
Happyguy
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Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but victory is of the LORD.

"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."

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Old 06-18-2014, 07:31   #75
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If I see someone kicking a woman till she is bleeding out of both ends I will stop it or die trying. Trying to stop a LV shooter? Don't know about that.

The first example is not hypothetical, it happened to someone I know in a nearby town.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:52   #76
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I'm not either. I have no duty or obligation to protect anyone outside of my family. Why open myself to personal and financial harm for someone else who won't take their personal defense seriously and they would most likely not pee in my ear if my head was on fire if the shoe was on the other foot.
Bingo. My firearm is there to protect me, Mrs. SC Tiger and little SC Tiger. Everyone else is on their own.

That doesn't mean I will allow a child to get abducted or harmed, or a woman to get robbed, raped or the #### beat out of her in my presence. But the circumstances will dictate how I react.

A mass shooting - depends on my location, distance to the shooter, presence of cover or concealment, sight lines, and the presence or absence of my family.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:58   #77
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Domestic Sheep in captive herds exist to provide food and income to the owner of that herd. A sheepdog is there to keep the sheep from wandering away from areas designated by the owner as okay for them to be and to prevent predators from taking sheep and cutting into the owners profit.

The sheepdog is chattel just like the sheep are.

The major differences, taxonomy aside, between the sheep and the sheepdog, is in the service provided to the owner and the fact that the sheepdog is less likely to be sheared and/or butchered and used for food. Both continue existing at the discretion of the owner.
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Old 06-18-2014, 09:33   #78
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I had something interesting occur at the bar I work at the other night. This time of year we get a lot of camp counselors in, from all over the country and Europe. They are a great bunch. Monday night about 25 of them were in, a mixed group, 2/3rd's women, the men all around 21-28. Some guy comes in that I have never seen before and spends a couple hours trying to pick up one of the girls. I am half keeping an eye on him, as I don't know him, nor what to expect. Several of the girl's friends come up to the bar and express concern that he is trying to pick her up(no fooling, I had that figured out in about 30 seconds.) I pulled the girl aside when she came up for a drink and told her I didn't know the guy, that as long as she was ok with him I was ok with him too, and that if there are any issues let me know and I will take care of things.

Fast forward another hour or so, and the girl tells the guy, loud enough for me to hear over the jukebox, to stop touching her. While this was going on there had to be at least 5 of her male coworkers standing within arm's reach, and they just stood there. Mind you, these guys are in their 20's, in much better physical shape then me, and a whole lot closer to the problem than I am. I am 57, just off of gall bladder surgery a couple weeks, and am still hurting. A lot. I walk over, trying to figure how I can diffuse the situation without it getting physical(and me getting punched in the stomach) and get between the guy and girl and asked him, quite politely what the problem was.

Mind you, all these coworkers and so called friends of hers just stood there, waiting for someone else to take care of things.

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Old 06-18-2014, 09:43   #79
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As a Militia Sergeant ( almost 3 years Training) in Largest Militia in America (California State Militia) and a CCW holder in a State of almost 40 million people with less than 50 k in CCW issued and a SEA of Criminals & Illegals being released from overcrowded prisons and rampant Local crime skyrocketing due to revolving door at Jails, I feel that having a CCW in California is the true fleshing out of the term "Sheepdog".
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Old 06-18-2014, 09:46   #80
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I had something interesting occur at the bar I work at the other night. This time of year we get a lot of camp counselors in, from all over the country and Europe. They are a great bunch. Monday night about 25 of them were in, a mixed group, 2/3rd's women, the men all around 21-28. Some guy comes in that I have never seen before and spends a couple hours trying to pick up one of the girls. I am half keeping an eye on him, as I don't know him, nor what to expect. Several of the girl's friends come up to the bar and express concern that he is trying to pick her up(no fooling, I had that figured out in about 30 seconds.) I pulled the girl aside when she came up for a drink and told her I didn't know the guy, that as long as she was ok with him I was ok with him too, and that if there are any issues let me know and I will take care of things.

Fast forward another hour or so, and the girl tells the guy, loud enough for me to hear over the jukebox, to stop touching her. While this was going on there had to be at least 5 of her male coworkers standing within arm's reach, and they just stood there. Mind you, these guys are in their 20's, in much better physical shape then me, and a whole lot closer to the problem than I am. I am 57, just off of gall bladder surgery a couple weeks, and am still hurting. A lot. I walk over, trying to figure how I can diffuse the situation without it getting physical(and me getting punched in the stomach) and get between the guy and girl and asked him, quite politely what the problem was.

Mind you, all these coworkers and so called friends of hers just stood there, waiting for someone else to take care of things.
I get what you are saying and I think you did the right thing but to extrapolate a bit, at some point in a situation like that I would ask myself "Why are these friends of hers not intervening? What do they know that I don't?"

In your situation I will surmise that you knew enough to be comfortable that the girl was in the right. But, again, to extrapolate this to other situations, can you know for sure?

Likely they are just "pussing out" but I would wonder.
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