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Old 03-17-2013, 12:36   #26
clarson_75
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As far as I can figure, this was not an order. this was a contract signing. There is no real ammo shortage. People are just buying it off the shelves as fast as possible to turn around and resell it at a much higher price.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:42   #27
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1.6 billion is a major 24 year war, according to DOD
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Old 03-17-2013, 13:16   #28
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
A. It's a contract to potentially buy that quantity

B. the Feds shoot a lot of ammo

C. do you really think the Fed. Gov't, the same people who brought you the morons in the TSA, could orchestrate some grand plan (as well as implement it) to subjugate the American populace when we can't even placate small Third World countries with the entire Military in a decade? Think about it for a moment.
agree with a and c.

b leads us to believe they hit when they shoot. i think that may be a stretch for the most part.
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Old 03-17-2013, 13:17   #29
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Originally Posted by clarson_75 View Post
As far as I can figure, this was not an order. this was a contract signing. There is no real ammo shortage. People are just buying it off the shelves as fast as possible to turn around and resell it at a much higher price.
or are buying out of f.e.a.r.

false evidence appearing real
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Old 03-17-2013, 13:52   #30
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5 rounds for every American! Guess real estate prices will come way down, if there's anybody left to buy.

I'd like to know how many body bags and coffins DHS has bought. I think that would be a better indication of their intentions.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:07   #31
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I could be wrong, but some of the Feds I've had interactions with indicate that they use duty ammo for practice. I don't think they buy duty and training ammo. I'm not 100% sure, but 1.6B is still a lot of ammo. I'd be happy to have 1.6K rounds in my closet.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:34   #32
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Originally Posted by dwhite53 View Post
I love math issues like this:

9mm overall length is 1.16 inches

1.16 times 1,600,000,000 equals

1,856,000,000 inches / divided by 12 equals

154,666,666.67 feet / divided by 5,280 feet in a mile equals

29,292.93 miles if laid end to end.
If My math is correct:
That's "228,571,428.6" New York 7 round Magazines!
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:39   #33
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About 5 rounds for everyone living in the US today. Someone said it was enough to wage open war for ten years. Bull.

Compair that to 2,900 rounds for everyone living in the US and you have the estimated ammo used in WWII which lasted about 5 years.
Our involvement in WWII was from 07Dec1941 to 02Sep1945. That's 3 years and 9 months.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:43   #34
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Exactly How Many Rounds is 1.6 Billion?
Is the answer, "enough to take out over half of the tinfoil-hatted nuts who frequent Glock Talk"?

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:04   #35
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Is the answer, "enough to take out over half of the tinfoil-hatted nuts who frequent Glock Talk"?

If there is enough to shoot every American 5 times, then I would assume it is safe to say you could take out all of the tinfoil-hatted nuts that frequent GT. Just remember to keep your eyes closed while your head is in that sand.

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Old 03-18-2013, 16:54   #36
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If there is enough to shoot every American 5 times, then I would assume it is safe to say you could take out all of the tinfoil-hatted nuts that frequent GT. Just remember to keep your eyes closed while your head is in that sand.
I'm glad that I have body armor!
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Old 03-18-2013, 16:59   #37
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101 years at current DHS consumption rate.
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Old 03-18-2013, 17:15   #38
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101 years at current DHS consumption rate.
Maybe the feds will practice more . . . . . .
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:30   #39
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They can shoot all of us 5 times each, or gun owners 15 times each. I bet you I know which group THEY are aiming for.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:44   #40
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Our involvement in WWII was from 07Dec1941 to 02Sep1945. That's 3 years and 9 months.
The war started before we got involved. The stat I found included the manufacture of small arms ammo from mid 39 to 45. It was not just US manufacture.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:59   #41
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They can shoot all of us 5 times each, or gun owners 15 times each.
Nowhere near enough. It takes 100+ rounds just to shoot a truck with two women.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:23   #42
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101 years at current DHS consumption rate.
My understanding is (last time I seen something posted) was the DHS accounts US wide and agency wide for almost 90,000 employees that carry a weapon and almost 200,000 total.

They use to the best of my understanding (I know the USSS uses duty ammo for practice) duty ammo for practice.

90,000 for a 100 round quarterly so 90,000 employees that qualify 4 times a year use 400 rounds per year. 90,000 x 400 right? Let someone else do the math, might BLOW THEIR MINDS!

Then you will need a box per employee just to load the magazine in their gun and the two additional magazines on their belts so another 50 rounds per employee x 90,000.

So not including any other type of firearms training AT ALL you can see the math is pretty underwhelming to be honest. They might have needed to buy more to be honest. If you said the employees used an additional 500 rounds each per year for training its easy to see how ammo would go quick.

Edited to add: Google (as reliable as it is) actually shows the armed DHS as being close to 135,000 not 90,000. Again do the math.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:55   #43
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My understanding is (last time I seen something posted) was the DHS accounts US wide and agency wide for almost 90,000 employees that carry a weapon and almost 200,000 total.

They use to the best of my understanding (I know the USSS uses duty ammo for practice) duty ammo for practice.

90,000 for a 100 round quarterly so 90,000 employees that qualify 4 times a year use 400 rounds per year. 90,000 x 400 right? Let someone else do the math, might BLOW THEIR MINDS!

Then you will need a box per employee just to load the magazine in their gun and the two additional magazines on their belts so another 50 rounds per employee x 90,000.

So not including any other type of firearms training AT ALL you can see the math is pretty underwhelming to be honest. They might have needed to buy more to be honest. If you said the employees used an additional 500 rounds each per year for training its easy to see how ammo would go quick.

Edited to add: Google (as reliable as it is) actually shows the armed DHS as being close to 135,000 not 90,000. Again do the math.
Well doing the math 135K * 400 = 54M
135K * 50 = 6.7M
135K * 40 = 5.4M (the rounds carried)

The total would be 66.1M and that equals only 4.1% of the 1.6 billion round order. I do not think they will have a need to buy more.

I did not include your 500 round per year training but if I did, that would only be an additional 6.75M for a total of 8.3% of the 1.6B order.

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Old 03-19-2013, 11:05   #44
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The war started before we got involved. The stat I found included the manufacture of small arms ammo from mid 39 to 45. It was not just US manufacture.
Yes WWII ran from 02Sep39 (Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, and it ended on 04Sep45 (Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri). But active US combat involvement (aside from ASW in the Atlantic) began at Pearl Harbor, HI on 07Dec41.
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:07   #45
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Well doing the math 135K * 400 = 54M
135K * 50 = 6.7M
135K * 40 = 5.4M (the rounds carried)

The total would be 66.1M and that equals only 4.1% of the 1.6 billion round order. I do not think they will have a need to buy more.

I did not include your 500 round per year training but if I did, that would only be an additional 6.75M for a total of 8.3% of the 1.6B order.
Per year, so 54 million rounds per year in just qualification, another 67.5 million rounds per year for additional training. So about 112 million rounds per year on just training and qualification of the 135,000 armed people in DHS. Not sure how the contractors they hire are armed so I won't speak on it. So since they are also not getting all 1.6 billion rounds at one time (if they even order that many) and will likely get them in yearly blocks the number is completely in line.

These numbers are pure speculation of course, I have no idea how many rounds are used/issued to officers but based on my experience being an administrative police officer that sees all purchases in my department across my desk prior to purchase I do understand the process. They have a wide open budget and I tell you if we had a wide open budget officers would be able to take at the very least 50-100 rounds home per week if they desired for additional trigger time and training.
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:22   #46
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Per year, so 54 million rounds per year in just qualification, another 67.5 million rounds per year for additional training. So about 120 million rounds per year on just training and qualification of the 135,000 armed people in DHS. Not sure how the contractors they hire are armed so I won't speak on it. So since they are also not getting all 1.6 billion rounds at one time (if they even order that many) and will likely get them in yearly blocks the number is completely in line.

These numbers are pure speculation of course, I have no idea how many rounds are used/issued to officers but based on my experience being an administrative police officer that sees all purchases in my department across my desk prior to purchase I do understand the process. They have a wide open budget and I tell if we had a wide open budget officers would be able to take at the very least 50-100 rounds home per week if they desired for additional trigger time and training.

Hey, I understand what you are thinking, but most people do not have a concept of what a Billion means. You have a lot of practice ammo, probably because others do not practice. It has been my experience that the majority of LE do not practice regularly. But in any event, maybe you are right, but it would take 11 years to use up the ammo in the math I performed on the other guy example. Also, why have they not needed it the past, along with 7,000 automatic M4's, a couple of thousand of converted tanks, many bullet proof toll boths, etc. I am not a tin foil guy, but I would like to get a believable explanation.

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Old 03-19-2013, 13:28   #47
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Hey, I understand what you are thinking, but most people do not have a concept of what a Billion means. You have a lot of practice ammo, probably because others do not practice. It has been my experience that the majority of LE do not practice regularly. But in any event, maybe you are right, but it would take 11 years to use up the ammo in the math I performed on the other guy example. Also, why have they not needed it the past, along with 7,000 automatic M4's, a couple of thousand of converted tanks, many bullet proof toll boths, etc. I am not a tin foil guy, but I would like to get a believable explanation.
I do not disagree with you on these topics trust me, just saying its not out in left field on the ammo as much as folks might think. I know agencies purchase ammo and automatic rifles probably every year and probably dozens of agencies but until the issues with our firearms and 2nd being threatened like it is now those purchases were never an issue.

That being said I do not expect we will get an explanation until it is apparent and right out in the open.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:45   #48
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1.6 billion is a major 24 year war, according to DOD
The liberal democrats wouldn't allow a war to last even half that length. Remember our betrayal of South Vietnam? I was there.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:27   #49
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It's been done to death, but here it goes again:

By my math, 1.6B rounds will last less than 6 yrs at current consumption.

Customs, Border Patrol, Secret Service and Coast Guard account for about 150,000 gun carrying officers/agents (all under DHS).

Qualifications are shot quarterly (4x per year), and each qual includes an ammo issue of 250 rds per handgun, 100 rounds per rifle, and 10 rounds per shotgun. Smimple math puts this at 1000 rounds/ year/ handgun, 400 rounds/year/rifle, 40 rounds/year/shotgun.

Each agent has a handgun. That's (1000 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 150,000,000 (150M).

Most agents also qualify with both the rifle and shotgun. That's (440 rounds/year) X (150,000 agents) = 66,000,000 (66M) rounds.

Special unit agents and managers are issued a second handgun. Let's shoot on the low side and say 30%. That's another (1000/year) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M) rounds.

Special units can also carry submachineguns, designated marksman rifles, etc. Low estimate of 30% use these, so that's That's another (1000/yr) X (45,000 agents) = 45,000,000 (45M).

Let's add that up shall we? 150M + 66M + 45M + 45M = 306M per year, JUST FOR QUALS. By my math, it takes only 5.22 years at that consumption level to burn through 1.6 Billion rounds.

Check my math please.



And by the way, YES we shoot premium hollowpoint ammo at quals. We do not shoot cheap stuff for two reasons:

1) Keeps ammo fresh. Shoot the last quarter's duty carry, replenish with the issue ammo. Heads off problems with bullet setback from repeated loading/unloading, as well as problems with powder decomposition (vibration/heat from carry breaking down powder grains into fine dust leading to overpressure). There are lots of "non-gun" people out there who don't know about this, so policy is written to look out for the dumbest officer/agent out there.

2) Keeps agents from carrying unauthorized ammo. Because if they issue FMJ ammo, certainly you will see some dummy carrying issued-for-training-but-unauthorized-for-duty FMJ on duty. See the idiot clause above.


So yeah, a five-year contract for ammo is SUCH a panic warning flag.




And PocketProtector has no idea what he is talking about making the ridiculous claim that this amount of ammo would last "101 years at current DHS consumption rate." Way to spread the misinformation.

I dare you to show the math behind your outlandish figures.

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Old 03-21-2013, 14:12   #50
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Yes WWII ran from 02Sep39 (Germany and the USSR invaded Poland, and it ended on 04Sep45 (Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri). But active US combat involvement (aside from ASW in the Atlantic) began at Pearl Harbor, HI on 07Dec41.
Japan was hostile in the Pacific/Asia for years before Poland. Whether that constituted a "World War" is up for interpretation.
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