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Old 03-19-2013, 09:02   #21
quake
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Got me curious so I went to http://www.handloads.org/calc/index.html to re-check something.

Figure a .22LR is 36 grains @ 1280 fps or so - that's 131 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I looked up what my camp-9 puts out, and it pushes federal 9bple 115 grainers at 1615.8 fps on average. It's still slightly more powerful at 550 yards (not the 500 I was guessing) than the .22 rifle is at the muzzle. Put another way, a .22 rifle even shooting mini-mags is still less powerful at the muzzle than the 9mm is from more than a quarter mile away. Even staying away from any +P+ or even +P loads; just plain old WWB-USA 115 fmj from the carbine runs 1505fps at the muzzle of the camp-9, and still has a little over 125 ft/lbs at 400-450 yards. Again, just a simple 9mm round; not approaching what a real rifle caliber can do.

Ran numbers at 100 yards for the .22, and it's roughly 1010 fps, or 80-90 ft/lbs depending on bullet weight. That's what a 9mm carbine has at (believe it or not) 800-900 yards.

From a strictly power perspective, if I can't see the 9mm carbine as "powerful enough" at 500-800 yards, the same has to be said of the .22 rimfire at 100-150 yards.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:35   #22
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No one has mentioned it yet but I assume from your post that you are on the ankle express and not in a vehicle.

I love your choice of a 9mm Glock, I have made the same one.

When it comes to a rifle it turns to usage and resupply. I go by the philosophy that what I bring is it, period. If you are in a gunfight and you win you get another gun and some ammo for it. If you can carry it...

I am between a 10/22 take down and an AR-15. If you plan on being gone a long time the .22 looks good with 1.5k rounds and if your planning on a limitted time then the AR-15 with 270 rounds might be right. All depends on what you can carry of course. I like your choice though.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:19   #23
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.22mag UR. '08.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:26   #24
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I think a lot of people ITT are not comprehending the actual use of the rifle. You can carry a god awful amount if .22LR on foot and being able to hunt small game is paramount. Shoot a squirrel or rabbit with your AR or shotgun and you won't have much left to eat. As well as you are wasting valuable defensive ammo. The .22 is the best all around gun for bugging out IMO.

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:53   #25
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I think a lot of people ITT are not comprehending the actual use of the rifle. You can carry a god awful amount if .22LR on foot and being able to hunt small game is paramount. Shoot a squirrel or rabbit with your AR or shotgun and you won't have much left to eat. As well as you are wasting valuable defensive ammo. The .22 is the best all around gun for bugging out IMO.
Or you can bug with a defensive rifle and one of these.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:08   #26
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While it is certainly true that a .22 isn't going to be much use at 500 yards, one has to look at the terrain one will be operating in. If you can't see your target at 500 yards due to obstructions, you're not going to be able to hit your target. In an urban environment or many wooded environments, getting a clear shot at 500 yards is unlikely. Heck, in the woods in my area, getting a clear shot at 500 feet would be a stretch.

There is a limited amount of weight that one can carry on one's person. You have to be smart about what you choose to carry. You can carry about four times more .22 ammo than you can .223 for the same weight. With 7.62x39 ammo, it is closer to six times. The actual weapon will also likely be heavier. My Marlin 795 .22 weighs about 4 pounds. You can carry a lot of .22 ammo, at least 200 rounds, for the difference between that and what the average AR weighs.

So that's my take. I think in an on-foot bug out, the .22 is a good choice.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:44   #27
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Regardless of what you have, there will always be some one with a bigger gun. . .
That's what she said!
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:27   #28
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Quake, great response... thank you. I would get a Sub 2000 in 9mm if I could find one at a reasonable price. That would be the ticket, although I do have questions about quality...

Revv, do you think a .308 bolt action should replace the .22 or a 12ga shotgun? I guess with that I could keep folks away from a distance, still while retreating.

I guess that is the MAIN point I'd make here... that I am running away at this point!

Although, gotta stop running sometime don't you?
The flaw in my argument is that I don't consider those that have to run. I see things from a home/base defensive. I see my running as a loss to some degree.

I may need to repositon, but I don't want to run.

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Old 03-19-2013, 19:08   #29
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Originally Posted by sharkbait22 View Post
...You can carry a god awful amount if .22LR on foot and being able to hunt small game is paramount. Shoot a squirrel or rabbit with your AR or shotgun and you won't have much left to eat...
Agree completely on the portability of .22 ammo, and even agree on the shotgun being 'low on the list' for me personally. But a whole lot of rabbit have been eaten after being shot with a 12-gauge. The shotgun's not what I want in a bugout situation, but it's a very good choice from a strictly hunting perspective and I can understand why some folks would go that route. To each his own on that; even our politicians and media agree that diversity is what makes America great.


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While it is certainly true that a .22 isn't going to be much use at 500 yards, one has to look at the terrain one will be operating in...

...So that's my take. I think in an on-foot bug out, the .22 is a good choice.
Just fwiw, the OP didn't bring up using the .22 at 500 yards, but rather 200 yards. I just threw out the 500-yard distance as a comparison - to point out the fact that a .22 is even less capable at the proposed 200 yards than the lowly 9mm is all the way out there at 500 yards. Anyone intentionally planning to use a either a .22 rimfire OR a 9mm for defensive purposes at 500 yards is kidding themselves hugely.
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Old 03-19-2013, 19:30   #30
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I would choose an AR in 5.56, and a .22 conversion. Plus my Glock 17, and a bunch of spare parts for both.
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Old 03-19-2013, 19:31   #31
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Or you can bug with a defensive rifle and one of these.
Well well... Look what's on my new wish list!
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Old 03-19-2013, 19:39   #32
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Well well... Look what's on my new wish list!
Highly recomended. I have two I picked up as soon as they came out. They now offer them from the factory with a threaded barrel.
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Old 03-19-2013, 20:05   #33
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For those that care about ammo weight.

The 223 is lighter than the 9mm.

22lr 36grains x 10 = 495grains

9mm 115 bple +p+ = 182gr.

357 125gr. 225gr.

357 187 gr. =288gr.

40s&w 180gr.=257gr.

45acp 230gr.= 325gr.

223 55gr.= 177gr

7.62x39 123gr=253gr.

308 150gr.= 368gr.

3006 180gr. = 454gr.
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Old 03-19-2013, 20:42   #34
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I'm 6' 2" 220lbs. Weight be dammed!

Arsenal SLR - 107fr
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Old 03-19-2013, 20:43   #35
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I would take an ar15 with a 22 conversion (broken down and put in my pack)
and a mod, 27 with a 9mm conversion barrel. My 27 feeds 40s&w rounds from
mod. 19 mag just fine. I like options.
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Old 03-19-2013, 20:44   #36
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That was just for those that cared about weight.
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Old 03-19-2013, 22:40   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quake View Post
Just fwiw, the OP didn't bring up using the .22 at 500 yards, but rather 200 yards. I just threw out the 500-yard distance as a comparison - to point out the fact that a .22 is even less capable at the proposed 200 yards than the lowly 9mm is all the way out there at 500 yards. Anyone intentionally planning to use a either a .22 rimfire OR a 9mm for defensive purposes at 500 yards is kidding themselves hugely.
Actually, my post was more aimed at revvy who seemed to be advocating a need for a 500-yard-capable weapon just because you may be facing a 500-yard-capable weapon. My point was that if the terrain didn't allow 500 yard shots, why would you worry about having a gun capable of making those shots if a lighter weapon with more ammo would be capable of making the shots that the terrain allowed? You only need a gun capable of making shots at the distances your terrain allows.

And as I said, weight matters. For long term hiking, you should only plan on carrying about 25% of your body weight. Anyone who thinks they can carry much more than that for an extended period of time, needs to do some real world testing. And even if you can comfortably carry more than that, it is likely to interfere with your maneuverability. Since the original premise was that one would be running away, it would seem like less weight would be an advantage.

Of course, if the terrain you'll be traveling in favors long-range shooting, then one may have a more difficult choice to make.
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Old 03-19-2013, 22:54   #38
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In an urban environment you're right, 500yrds is likely not something you will see. In my rural world I can see for a couple miles depending upon where I position myself. I believe this is likely the case with many. Suburban areas are not completely limited to close quarter living.

This thread proves that there is no right answer. There is not a perfect scenario.

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Old 03-20-2013, 15:36   #39
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This is one of those threats that keep coming up and turn into huge messes.
I had started one before too.
I too have a .22LR rifle in my BO kit and even keep a 175 rounds in the butt of the stock and an extra 10 round magazine and a 25 round magazine attached.
I keep one of them in my SUV at all times with a BOB too.
I also keep a loaded 9mm pistol, holster and 3 loaded 15 round magazines too plus a box of 50 9mm and a box of 100 .22LR rounds in my BOB.
This and all the stuff I have in my bag is all I can carry for any length of time weight wise.

I find the .22lr a very good all around round which lets you carry lots of ammo in a small package.
I personally rather not get into any big shootouts with anyone if I can avoid it and lets face it most encounters in that kind are usually close up and not 500 yards from you.
Could it happen that someone shoots at you from long distance? sure but I would also think that someone that attempts to shoot you from a distance knows how to shoot and most likely not miss you.
In that case you'll be incapacitated anyway and would make no difference what rifle you have with you when you are laying on the ground with a bullet in your chest.

Anyway I think you have a good combo to take and the only advice I'd give you is to practice as much and often as you can with both of them.

Oh one more thing, when running around with a small .22lr rifle most people you'd encounter would not perceive you as a big threat as they are stroking their AR or AK as you pass by.
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Old 03-20-2013, 17:02   #40
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Highly recomended. I have two I picked up as soon as they came out. They now offer them from the factory with a threaded barrel.
I looked at them a couple of times, and honestly they seem to be built better than the regular 10-22s.
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