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Old 03-18-2013, 17:57   #26
Rotn1
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Life is too variable to try to think of all the potential scenarios. Best be trained and have good situational awareness.
Beyond that, and with all due respect all options are on the table, including doing nothing.
It does not escape me, that the people I "might help" probably wouldn't remember my name, while my family would be grieving.
I'll take it as it comes.
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Old 03-18-2013, 18:05   #27
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Sounds likes he's trying to justify his stance to himself. Sad way to go through life.
BS. He is 100% correct.
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Old 03-18-2013, 20:50   #28
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
The sheepdog thing isn't "cheesy", it's childish. It's desperately seeking admiration
So sayeth the person with an avatar named after a fictional former insurgent and bank robber turned drunkard who has a tendency to speak with his pistol, played on the big screen by a western legend...
I will agree with you that the average Joe who is walking around referring to himself as a sheepdog because he is carrying is probably looking for attention and more of a danger to himself and others than he is helpful.
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Old 03-18-2013, 21:10   #29
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I always imagine that people talking about being a sheep dog carry one of these as well.

I carry to protect me and mine. If I see you or yours in an altercation; I will stick around to be a good witness as long as it does not put me in any danger.

Once you start looking to inject yourself into a situation that you know will require the use of your weapon, you are no longer carrying for personal defense. Oklahoma is a castle state, I have no duty to retreat; but I also have no legal standing if I take action against someone that was not a threat to me.

Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 03-18-2013, 21:14   #30
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So sayeth the person with an avatar named after a fictional former insurgent and bank robber turned drunkard who has a tendency to speak with his pistol, played on the big screen by a western legend...
That' some stupid **** right there, I don't care who you are, that's stupid ****.
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Old 03-18-2013, 21:15   #31
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk?
No; it all began with an article written by Dave Grossman titled: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/...sheepdogs.html
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Old 03-18-2013, 21:18   #32
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 03-18-2013, 22:18   #33
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The Internet, no matter what it was built for, used by those who are ignorant to show us how ignorant.
THAT didn't start on GT/GNG, either, but there are a lot of examples to be found.


I've always thought the "sheepdog" thing was kind of dumb, but that's because I think calling people "sheep" is dumb. People make different choices in their life. If I choose to carry a gun, that doesn't make me better than someone who doesn't feel comfortable doing so. It just means I've made a different choice.

And yes, I fully expect to get mocked for saying that on a gun forum. But that's because there are so many "sheepdogs" here to show me the error of my ways.....
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:02   #34
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I'm not either. I have no duty or obligation to protect anyone outside of my family. Why open myself to personal and financial harm for someone else who won't take their personal defense seriously and they would most likely not pee in my ear if my head was on fire if the shoe was on the other foot.
You have a very dim view of the world sir.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:22   #35
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Sounds likes he's trying to justify his stance to himself. Sad way to go through life.
Something is wrong in the matrix as we agree on this one.

















































(skeery...)
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:25   #36
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:25   #37
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More like a lesbian cougar.
That is absolutely cruel.... but funny as all heck!
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:52   #38
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As someone else said, there are far too many scenarios to say for sure just what I might do in any of them, but for now the only way I would intervene in a situation is if there was obvious danger of a child, woman or elderly person losing life or limb.

My goal in life is to not find myself in a situation that requires the use of my weapon. I certainly do not see a need to go out of my way to find trouble.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:06   #39
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The moron on the video is thinking of want-to-be-mall-ninjas, a sheepdog is a different animal altogether.

He is correct, not everyone is a sheepdog. Some like the guy in the video will apparently sit idly by when he finds himself in the middle of a Beslan experience. Fair enough.

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On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs
(From the book, On Combat, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman)
http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:26   #40
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It does seem like many CCWers, especially those who have never been in the military or law enforcement, are more Pomeranian than Sheepdog.

As long as they aren't a liability to the rest of us, I guess not being able to depend on our fellow citizens is no less than we should expect. It's always interesting to read their attempts to justify it here, as if explaining why not taking a risk to help others is logical or justifiable makes it less cowardly.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:54   #41
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
ahhh... no. Your comment below applies to your comment above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
That' some stupid **** right there, I don't care who you are, that's stupid ****.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:00   #42
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The arrogance of ignorance is amazing to behold, isn't it?
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:17   #43
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BS. He is 100% correct.
Being a coward isn't really "correct" or "incorrect," it's just the nature of some people. The attempt to justify it with explanation is the evidence of their nature. To them, it is perfectly logical and anybody who takes a risk to help others is foolish or "childish" or whatever. I assume it makes the cowards feel better to convince themselves that they are superior. The rest of us, on the other hand, don't view them that way.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:10   #44
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Being a coward isn't really "correct" or "incorrect," it's just the nature of some people. The attempt to justify it with explanation is the evidence of their nature. To them, it is perfectly logical and anybody who takes a risk to help others is foolish or "childish" or whatever. I assume it makes the cowards feel better to convince themselves that they are superior. The rest of us, on the other hand, don't view them that way.
I'm glad your world is so black and white. There are just too many variables in the world to generalize. As much as I hate the "What if" scenarios, in any CPL/CHL training they come out of the woodwork. The number of possible different scenarios in itself shows how dynamic the world really is. When shooting in the defense of another you are even more removed from the details then when shooting for self defense.

Scenario:
You walk into a bank. Everyone's face down on the floor except a man who is standing pointing a gun at another man on the floor. What do you do? Pull your weapon and fire? Save the poor mans life who will get shot execution style? What if the man standing up was an off duty cop or another "sheepdog" holding a robber at gunpoint until police arrived?

There are to many variables and legal consequences to get involved in other peoples safety, all the time. While I'm all for protecting the lives of my fellow man, I need to be damn sure of who is the aggressor in the given scenario.

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Old 03-19-2013, 09:52   #45
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Being a coward isn't really "correct" or "incorrect," it's just the nature of some people. The attempt to justify it with explanation is the evidence of their nature. To them, it is perfectly logical and anybody who takes a risk to help others is foolish or "childish" or whatever. I assume it makes the cowards feel better to convince themselves that they are superior. The rest of us, on the other hand, don't view them that way.
It isn't cowardice to put your family's safety and welfare first. To the contrary, failing to place your family's safety and welfare first by intervening in a situation in such a way as to place your own children, spouse or loved ones in harm's way is a moral and ethical betrayal of your responsibilities as a spouse and parent.

Playing hero with your own life is one thing. Playing hero with your children's lives is quite another.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:25   #46
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If your wife & children aren't with you?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:28   #47
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Would I intervene in a situation that unfolded right infront of me? Most likely. Would I head towards the sound of gunfire and "close to engage" in a mall of crowded people without even some of the facts? Probably not.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:31   #48
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If your wife & children aren't with you?
Here's something I don't believe I've seen mentioned....


I run out to the store, whatever, leave my wife and son at home. In the store, I've checked out and close to the door as a guy at the other end of the store opens fire, screaming and just blasting away. I SEE it happen, there's no question at all of who the bad guy is.

I can draw a fire arm and try to get close enough to drop the bad guy, or I can get out the door and find cover to call the police, whatever. If I move on the guy, I could very well be killed.

Personally, I would hit the door because I don't want to widow my wife and leave my son without his father. I frankly don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me making that choice. A CCW permit is not a cape and tights. It's not a badge that makes me law enforcement, and it's not a contract with society that I'll jump in front of a bullet for anyone outside of my family.

Selfish? Maybe, but I'm not answerable to anyone other than to take care of my family. That mean putting them ahead of me, and me ahead of anyone else.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:32   #49
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It isn't cowardice to put your family's safety and welfare first. To the contrary, failing to place your family's safety and welfare first by intervening in a situation in such a way as to place your own children, spouse or loved ones in harm's way is a moral and ethical betrayal of your responsibilities as a spouse and parent.

Playing hero with your own life is one thing. Playing hero with your children's lives is quite another.
Your position suggests you believe that one is mutually exclusive to the other.

Not to mention, it seems your position is that every soldier who's given his life betrayed his family.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:51   #50
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Not to mention, it seems your position is that every soldier who's given his life betrayed his family.
If a man, married with children, decided to enlist when his wife asked him not to? Yeah, I could say that could be argued to be the case.

There's a reason a lot of military members end up being divorced. A lot of families just can't handle that strain. And a lot of THOSE are even with the families that understand and 'sign on' when the member enlists.

The same argument could be made about police officers.

But you're changing the metric here. When you talk about military members, police officers, even firefighters, etc, these are all jobs that those people ELECT to do. They step up and volunteer with the full knowledge - and, presumably, the tacit agreement if not full-throated support - of their families. That's a far cry from just some guy that walks into a bank or a mall or a Walmart at just the wrong time. To try and equate them is just fallacious.



And, for the record, I was out of the Army for 5 years when the 9/11 attack happened. When the war in Afghanistan started to ramp up, I started weighing the options to re-enlist, but it was in the middle of October that my wife found out she was pregnant.

Are you planning to call me a coward now for opting to take care of my wife and child rather than re-enlisting?
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