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Old 03-10-2013, 21:00   #51
Rleee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
The S&W Model 57 or Model 58 revolver chambered in .41 Magnum would be ideal for park rangers, game wardens, and other rural law enforcement agencies that may have to contend with large wild animals in a self defense scenario.

Use the standard loads for criminals, use the full magnum loads for bear.


Back in the 70's I carried a M58 with Remington mid range loads. That was after my own testing, not that of my dept. Our policy was it had to be a DA revolver and you had to qualify with it to carry it.
There has always been a misconception that just because cops carry guns they love, adore, and respect them. I've seen officers go to the range to qualify with revolvers that wouldn't function. I've checked shotguns in racks that had been used as ashtrays. A lot of cops then as now consider guns just another tool of the trade.
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Old 03-10-2013, 21:10   #52
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Originally Posted by Fox View Post
The S&W Model 57 or Model 58 revolver chambered in .41 Magnum would be ideal for park rangers, game wardens, and other rural law enforcement agencies that may have to contend with large wild animals in a self defense scenario.

Use the standard loads for criminals, use the full magnum loads for bear.
Indeed. IMO one of the greatest "all around" handguns ever made. This one was used by the San Antonio PD.

Caliber Corner

It shoots pretty well too. This was shot in double taps at 18 yds between the wind gusts that day, load was a 220 gn KSWC at about 1,100 fps.

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Old 03-10-2013, 21:50   #53
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I preferred the writings of Skeeter Skelton. Ol' Skeet could lay it on thick, then cut through it to get to the truth. A finer man there never was.
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Old 03-11-2013, 00:23   #54
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I have been carrying a 357 Revolver (8 shot Pro Series 4") for quite a while. Shooting it is pretty simple but reloading is not. You pretty much have to take your eyes off the target to reload with moon clips or speed loaders. If you were in an awkward position such as lying on your side or on a stair case with your feet up hill, reloading may be more dificult and time consuming. If 4 or 5 rounds have been fired and there is an intermission, it is probable that emptying the remaining rounds and reloading the whole cylinder is faster that trying to load just the expended chambers. On an auto, you can draw your full magazine and have it in position so it only takes a split second to dump the partially expended magazine and replace it with a full one. Easier to do in an awkward position while trying to keep eyes on the threat. I have my magazines arranged on my belt so they are accessible with either hand. If one hand is out of action, I can still reload, only slightly slower. I may carry my old 6946 tomorrow with its 12+1 capacity plus one 12 round extra magazine and two 20 round magazines. Simple to operate, reliable, adequate number of rounds. Those Glock 357s are beginning to interst me. Capacity (Taylor Freelance), reliability, simplicity, penetration. I have a beta mag for my M4 plus a carload of PMags. Am I paranoid enough?

When I first started in 1974 with my training being "here is your badge and the car key, Try not to kill anybody the first day. I started the academy 45 days later. Worked graveyards 12-7 and then went to the academy in the day. 99 percent of police shootings were one bad guy against one cop at close range. Whoever made a good solid hit first won. Second place carried a pretty severe penalty range. Now a days, there are more ambushes, well armed criminals, mass shooters who plan on shooting unarmed innocents until someone takes them out. There have been three mass shootings in our general area (UT Tower, Lubys, Fort Hood). They were years apart with different motivational factors, but large govermnent offices, large universities and a large military base in the area, we have to be ready for a major terrorist or anarchist action in addition to Drug Cartels, Texas Mafia, MS13, Aryan Nations, Soverign Citizens and Republic of Texas. All those terrorist actions overseas are just dress reheasals for the same thing over here. Mass hostage situation at a school, theatre, sporting event, the olympic games, the super bowl.

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:52   #55
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:28   #56
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I understand that only a few cops ever fire their weapons on duty throughout an entire career. But they need to understand constitutional law, the latest court decisions, as well as be able to out talk or manhandle folks, testify in court, prepare detailed paperwork or provide first aid on a daily basis.

Tell me what is covered in their promotion tests? Are timed progressively more difficult practical gun handling exercises graded for promotion. What is needed for promotion is where the Cops will spend their extra time (unless they ordinarily work a dangerous assignment).
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:50   #57
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I understand that only a few cops ever fire their weapons on duty throughout an entire career. But they need to understand constitutional law, the latest court decisions, as well as be able to out talk or manhandle folks, testify in court, prepare detailed paperwork or provide first aid on a daily basis.

Tell me what is covered in their promotion tests? Are timed progressively more difficult practical gun handling exercises graded for promotion. What is needed for promotion is where the Cops will spend their extra time (unless they ordinarily work a dangerous assignment).
Please, don't try to muddle this discussion with reality. It simply will be wasted on certain participants. Black and white simplicity is needed.

Here, I'll fix your post for you:

All cops shall attend GUNSITE for their firearms training. Then they shall be issued Ol' Slabsides and hardball (they all fall to hardball). Any extra resources shall not be spent on Consitutional Law, emrgency vehicle operations, conflict resolution, first aid, interview/interrogation techniques, less lethal force, report writing, and court room tactics (among others). Any further resources will be spent on additonal GUNSITE training and hardball.

Edited for spelling.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:55   #58
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I've never seen a thread where so many people are miscommunictating in my life.

Also, for the record it's GUNSITE not gunsight. If you're going to be witty at least be correct.
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Old 03-11-2013, 13:06   #59
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I've never seen a thread where so many people are miscommunictating in my life.

Also, for the record it's GUNSITE not gunsight. If you're going to be witty at least be correct.
Right, GUNSITE, not gunsight, I'll make a note on that.

ETA: Okay, I think it's all fixed now. I fixed a typo on "hardball" that you missed as well.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:15   #60
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K & C had some timeless comments about gunfighting. Their advice is sorely ignored nowadays.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:30   #61
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I've never seen a thread where so many people are miscommunictating in my life.

Also, for the record it's GUNSITE not gunsight. If you're going to be witty at least be correct.
Ah heck, I just wanted to post up some pics of one of my cool guns.

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Old 03-11-2013, 15:40   #62
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I preferred the writings of Skeeter Skelton. Ol' Skeet could lay it on thick, then cut through it to get to the truth. A finer man there never was.
I remember Skeeter - what a great man!
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Old 03-11-2013, 18:12   #63
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This guy was too lazy to use a 1911.

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Old 03-11-2013, 18:41   #64
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This guy was too lazy to use a 1911.

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Maybe for the better since he killed a coworker in his office while goofing around:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se.../rector_ja.xml
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Old 03-11-2013, 19:27   #65
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Maybe for the better since he killed a coworker in his office while goofing around:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_se.../rector_ja.xml
Didn't know that. That does change things in terms of my opinion of him. Reading the story, he should have known better.
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Old 03-11-2013, 20:06   #66
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I have a question.

Shotguns have safeties and rifles have safeties but when the topic of a safety on a handgun comes up it gets really controversial. Not just in terms of what you guys were saying about training large numbers of people, but the existence of a safety on a handgun in general seems to really bring out the fire in people on one side or the other.

How come?

Is it because revolvers don't have safeties and when the transition was made to autos it was viewed with the stinkeye?
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Old 03-11-2013, 20:17   #67
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I have a question.

Shotguns have safeties and rifles have safeties but when the topic of a safety on a handgun comes up it gets really controversial. Not just in terms of what you guys were saying about training large numbers of people, but the existence of a safety on a handgun in general seems to really bring out the fire in people on one side or the other.

How come?

Is it because revolvers don't have safeties and when the transition was made to autos it was viewed with the stinkeye?
Good question. IMO it has to do with the presentation. Long guns are rarely used in LE and when I have deployed one in the field, there was ample time to turn the safety off. Frankly, and it went against training, I didn't use the safety anyway. The gun is hot regardless, what makes it any safer just because the safety is on? So I'd charge the chamber, keep it in a safe direction, and when done, clear the chamber and put it back in the rack.

With a handgun, it is always ready. It is cold when it is in the holster and hot when out. Again, no advantage to a safety. Also, handguns are often deployed in an instant. That doesn't mean a safety can't be flicked off, but it means that a higher level of training is going to be needed and that just doesn't happen in most LE circles.

You can put in the time to be proficient with taking a gun off safe while seaking cover and presenting your gun and getting off a shot while someone is trying to kill you, but it's just isn't going to happen when you have guys spening less than 10 hours a year on the range.
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Old 03-11-2013, 20:52   #68
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I have a question.

Shotguns have safeties and rifles have safeties but when the topic of a safety on a handgun comes up it gets really controversial. Not just in terms of what you guys were saying about training large numbers of people, but the existence of a safety on a handgun in general seems to really bring out the fire in people on one side or the other.

How come?

Is it because revolvers don't have safeties and when the transition was made to autos it was viewed with the stinkeye?
here, jump back in the time machine with me and travel back to the days of my youth when this was the most important issue in LE hand guns. I'll try to put it in a bit of perspective.

First of all, bear in mind that the first departments to adopt the semi-auto were definitely viewed with the stink-eye.

There just weren't many useful autos being made in the US. Very, very, few departments were going to take the heat over a single action being carried cocked and locked. Basically that left the S&W 39. in the late 60's that's what there was and it's big plus was that it had its roots in the requirements the Army put forward n the 50's for a 1911 replacement, both in caliber and with the safety.

The safety was a nice feature though and much was made bout Cops being shot with their own guns since it was a time before security holsters and the most popular holster among those who were free to choose was the breakfront with more emphasis on speed than security.

Now in those days expanding ammo sucked, sucked bad, it sucked leftover suck. the Hps had such a small cavity, so they would feed in the mil-surp guns that made up 90% of the 9mm market at that time, that the only way they could be counted on to expand is if they were fired at a 90 degree angle into a hard object, like a brick or steel plate. The other option was soft points, but the lead noses had to be hard enough not to lead-up feed ramps so....

So what you had was ten-year period of spotty results with low cap 9mms in the few departments that bought them, Pennsylvania SP liked the for penetration on cars.

"Hammer back" wasn't acceptable and there were no DAs in any caliber but 9mm until the Browning/Sig 220 showed up.

A guy named Lee Jurras came along and decided to start the "Super-Vel" to offer a better performing round.


In summary,
For a long time there were few guns (made in America which was critical in those days), that were suitable for LE and for those that were, the ammo sucked.

The infamous "Miami shoot-out" sped up a lot of developments considerably. but it took a change in attitudes about "Buy American", gun designs and ammo improvements for the ball to get rolling.


Hope you enjoyed the history lesson




I should also add that the Army trials that led to the adoption of the aopened a lot of closed doors bout autos an European designs such as Sig

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Old 03-11-2013, 21:36   #69
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Didn't know that. That does change things in terms of my opinion of him. Reading the story, he should have known better.
I read the story in the link, but where did it say the name of the officer that pulled the trigger?
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Old 03-11-2013, 22:06   #70
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I read the story in the link, but where did it say the name of the officer that pulled the trigger?

It doesn't. Just as the White House doesn't have Obama's name on the mailbox out front, i.e., it's common knowledge.

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Old 03-11-2013, 22:12   #71
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It doesn't.......................it's common knowledge.

Common to who?



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Old 03-11-2013, 22:54   #72
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<<Col. Cooper believed every cop should carry a cocked & locked Colt .45 ACP, with military FMJ.>>

230gr ball at 830fps out of a 5" barrel will still get most jobs done just fine.

High tech, costly ammo can do better but........
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Old 03-12-2013, 00:10   #73
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Common to who?




To those who are smart enough to use Google.
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Old 03-12-2013, 00:30   #74
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It doesn't. Just as the White House doesn't have Obama's name on the mailbox out front, i.e., it's common knowledge.

Well, you don't have to be such a horse's ass about it. It's not like you see this in print, or online everyday. I have never heard of it, and I've read a lot of gun stuff over the last 35 years or so.

Why would someone even think to "google" something like that?

But, I did like you suggested and looked it up. The 1st 5 threads I read were all about guys asking if it was true or conjecture.... and linking to the brief story you posted above.

Here's one sample:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-34879.html

Quote:
After reading the entire TFL thread there is no definitive cite that the Jordan incident occured.

After an extensive web search I could not find anything there either.
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Old 03-12-2013, 00:47   #75
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Third search, 12th thread, someone signing in as Pennie Rector:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=2384639

Quote:
Hello I am here to tell you that the story of Bill Jordan accidentally shooting a fellow Border Patrol officer is true. That man was my father, John A. Rector.
I was 13 years old and in the 8th grade, and that has been some 55 years ago, but my memory is very clear. According to the Coroner's inquest, this is the way it happened: Bill Jordan was showing a pistol, a 357 Magnum, to another man. They were in Bill's office at the headquarters of the San Diego Sector in San Ysidro, CA. The gun was unloaded initially, and Bill was demonstrating how he drew and fired. He then reloaded the gun and put it into a desk drawer.
The conversation continued, and forgetting he had loaded the gun he took it out of the drawer, aimed it at the wall and fired. My father was sitting at his desk on the other side of that wall. The bullet went through the wall and hit him in the head. He died about 3 hours later. There was no wrongful death suit, or anything like that. Bill was so upset that he had to be taken home under sedation and the next day I remember he and his wife coming to our house, and he sobbed as he told us how sorry he was. He and my Dad were friends.
I have often given my story as an example of how ANYONE can have an accident with a gun, no matter how expert you are with them.
My Dad did not see me complete my education, he was not there to walk me down the aisle when I married, nor did he see me graduate from college. He never knew that I had a successful career. I don't hate Bill Jordan, nor bear him any ill will. I expect he is gone from this earth now too.
I just wanted to set the record straight for those of you in this forum and elsewhere who think this might have been a false story.
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