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Old 03-10-2013, 12:37   #26
happyguy
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Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
I assure you, the level of training given to both incoming officers as well as those already in the field would be woefully inadequate for issuance of the 1911 platform. Beside which, why would you issue a seven round magazine capacity handgun to officers when perfectly suitable fifteen round magazine capacity handguns are available?

I'm not pushing 1911's. I'm just at odds with the idea that the average officer/person can't operate one safely and efficiently without spending several thousand dollars on training.

You draw the weapon, slip the safety off, settle the sights, and pull the trigger. It really isn't all that complicated and it takes just a bit of practice.

I understand your position, but the problem isn't with the weapon. It's with the officers and I for one have little sympathy for a police officer that is negligent enough not to become proficient with such an important part of their job.

But in the end, we pander to the lowest common denominator. It has become the default response in our society and I get that. The tail wags the dog.

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Old 03-10-2013, 12:41   #27
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One of the interesting side notes in a comparison of the "Glock-type" pistol V the "1911" that I find amusing happens with regularity in the "general firearms" section

The argument goes thusly,

"The Glock is perfectly safe because it is all about training, I swear on a stack of bibles, cross my heart and hope to die, that I will never, ever, put my finger on the trigger until I am ready to shoot because I have trained to a moral certainty of that. I wouldn't carry a 1911 however because I not sure I can train well enough to always remember to flick off a thumb safety"

And this is on a forum of gun enthusiasts. Imagine the hair pulling chore it is to teach a bunch of cops, many who aren't enthusiasts, the ins and outs of firearms safety and use.

To put it in another perspective, a PD I was familiar with changed over, in the mid '70s from the "old fashioned" S&W 19 & 66s to the "New" S&W 39's" the argument went this way,

"We are changing over because the new gun is a bit easier to train officers on at the range. DA shooting is a hard skill and we will simply lower expectations a bit for that first shot from the "safe" DA position. In addition we feel this gun will enhance officer safety due to the magazine safety (allowing the officer to "punch out" in a struggle for the weapon) and the slide mounted safety which provides a margin of officer safety that the revolver lacks since anyone can fire a revolver without being trained on the use of any safety."

In a few years other autos had been tried and the Glock was finally settled on, because, as the reasoning went,

"this new pistol will streamline the training process because of its simplicity and the relative ease with which a non-shooter can be trained to fire it. With no complex safety mechanism to deal with and a consistent trigger pull less time will need to be spent on such details and we can qualify officers to a practical standard much more efficiently"

In the reality of it all, the 1911 is a fine gun, but it is no surprise that it is not taking up much space in the general LE issue community. It's great gun for the 1911 enthusiast, and was for a soldier as a secondary arm, but as a primary arm for those who are neither, not so much.

Last edited by countrygun; 03-10-2013 at 13:01..
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:58   #28
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
People are responsible for making their own choices in life. If a police officer is issued a 1911 and is so indifferent to its operation that he can't use it in a life and death situation, he has made a bad choice.

There is nothing wrong with a 1911 that accepting personal responsibility won't cure.e.

Edit: Flicking off a thumb safety and pulling a trigger are about on par as far a complexity goes, IMHO.

Additional edit: It isn't training that is lacking, it's motivation and practice.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

Your reply is totally removed from today's reality. Do you really think that LE trainers have the time, patience, resources & money to give every officer Delta Force level training? Most have never even shot a gun before and few have the initiative nor personal finances to become proficient. The agency issuing the sidearm has responsibility as well for issuing the officers the best overall weapon for today's modern enviornment.


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Modern pistol designs have made the 1911 obsolete in itís role as a combat sidearm. Itís finicky and demands constant attention that a warfighter canít afford to offer.

Larry Vickers
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Old 03-10-2013, 13:19   #29
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Regrettably, discussions over which version/type/model/caliber sidearm is most suitable for general police issuance inevitably boils down to a back and forth debate more appropriate for a social dispute revolving around favorite sports teams.

When a person has a responsibility to determine the most practical and task related piece of equipment to choose for a group of journeyman level police officers, what is “best” is frequently not the sidearm most desired by firearms interested individuals.

The 1911 platform came from a 1900 Browning design. It’s a more finicky mechanism than current modern designs. The cartridge coming off the magazine is unsupported for a significant fraction of an inch as it makes its way into the pistol’s chamber. There are simply too many negatives against the 1911 for this type platform for it to be considered to be issued to general service type police officers.
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Old 03-10-2013, 13:27   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Your reply is totally removed from today's reality. Do you really think that LE trainers have the time, patience, resources & money to give every officer Delta Force level training? Most have never even shot a gun before and few have the initiative nor personal finances to become proficient. The agency issuing the sidearm has responsibility as well for issuing the officers the best overall weapon for today's modern enviornment
Bolded and underlined part of your post was all that was necessary.

Considering the technical aspects of a lot of LE equipment your rational rings hollow.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that I'm not advocating putting 1911's in police officers hands.

As your post indicates, they obviously aren't up to it.


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Old 03-10-2013, 13:34   #31
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I don't know any informed expert that thinks any handgun FMJ is a great choice for LE or civilian self-defense. It's silly to poo-poo (for example) 9mm and say it's the reason the Germans "lost the war".

Last edited by cowboy1964; 03-10-2013 at 13:35..
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Old 03-10-2013, 13:36   #32
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Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
I assure you, the level of training given to both incoming officers as well as those already in the field would be woefully inadequate for issuance of the 1911 platform. Beside which, why would you issue a seven round magazine capacity handgun to officers when perfectly suitable fifteen round magazine capacity handguns are available?
If you can't train an officer to use a 1911 safely and effectively in 13 days you either need to look to yourself as the problem or your candidate selection process as the problem.

Edit: My criticism is not directed at the typical police departments weapon selection so much as the rationalizations I'm hearing in this thread.

Edit: added "in 13 days"

Last edit: I honestly don't care what any department carries, I just hope the officers are competent.

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Old 03-10-2013, 13:49   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
If you can't train an officer to use a 1911 safely and effectively you either need to look to yourself as the problem or your candidate selection process as the problem.

Edit: My criticism is not directed at the typical police departments weapon selection so much as the rationalizations I'm hearing in this thread.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
The choosing of police officers is done at a pay grade far above that of their firearms instructors. Youíre conflating a social/political paradigm shift with your views on what sidearm would be ďbestĒ for issuance to working police officers. I can search my soul from now until heck freezes over but the bottom line is, I will train the officers sent to me. Period.

If you have the political will and clout to somehow require the hiring of officers that meet your standards, then go for it. None the less, the real world demands that decisions be made that reflect the reality of the day.
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Old 03-10-2013, 13:59   #34
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The choosing of police officers is done at a pay grade far above that of their firearms instructors. You’re conflating a social/political paradigm shift with your views on what sidearm would be “best” for issuance to working police officers.

I guess stating again that I don't care what firearm your guys carry - it doesn't matter to me as long as they are safe. I don't want them to carry a gun they are not competent with. Storebought 1911's may not be best. And all that other stuff.

You are just determined to have an argument that isn't there.


I can search my soul from now until heck freezes over but the bottom line is, I will train the officers sent to me. Period.

Hopefully you will LEAD them also.

If you have the political will and clout to somehow require the hiring of officers that meet your standards, then go for it. None the less, the real world demands that decisions be made that reflect the reality of the day.
I have no quarrel with you or whatever weapon your department chooses. But if your officers can't learn to utilize a 1911 in 13 days they are stupid.

Sorry that's my honest opinion.

And I seriously doubt they are stupid.



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Old 03-10-2013, 14:02   #35
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I'm not pushing 1911's. I'm just at odds with the idea that the average officer/person can't operate one safely and efficiently without spending several thousand dollars on training.
What was the largest group of police officers you ever trained or trained with?

What was their budget?

What was the time frame allowed for the training?

You would think, that, after over 100 years, if it were practical gun for LE more agencies would have noticed it.
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Old 03-10-2013, 14:05   #36
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Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
The choosing of police officers is done at a pay grade far above that of their firearms instructors. You’re conflating a social/political paradigm shift with your views on what sidearm would be “best” for issuance to working police officers.

I guess stating again that I don't care what firearm your guys carry matters to me. I don't want them to carry a gun they are not competent with. Storebought 1911's may not be best. And all that other stuff.

You are just determined to have an argument that isn't there.


I can search my soul from now until heck freezes over but the bottom line is, I will train the officers sent to me. Period.

Hopefully you will LEAD them also.

If you have the political will and clout to somehow require the hiring of officers that meet your standards, then go for it. None the less, the real world demands that decisions be made that reflect the reality of the day.
I have no quarrel with you or whatever weapon your department chooses. But if your officers can't learn to utilize a 1911 in 13 days they are stupid.

Sorry that's my honest opinion.

I seriously doubt they are stupid.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 03-10-2013, 14:07   #37
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The Chief is correct. I've seen the same things he has. Others may watch cop shows and think they know how things work, but in the real world, 1911's are impractical for police work. There are simply better options.

It is simply not practical to think that we can resurrect the Colonel and have him train every cop on the road (not to mention the desk slugs) so that they can obtain some level of sophistication and wear a barbeque gun in the field.
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Old 03-10-2013, 14:07   #38
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post

You would think, that, after over 100 years, if it were practical gun for LE more agencies would have noticed it.
Why do you guys insist on carrying on an argument that I'm not making?

If you are a police officer maybe it's true that a safety is too complicated for you operate.

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Old 03-10-2013, 14:10   #39
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
I have no quarrel with you or whatever weapon your department chooses. But if your officers can't learn to utilize a 1911 in 13 days they are stupid.

Sorry that's my honest opinion.



Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Your comments in red are way out of line. Just because Chief doesn't list his actions in his sig line doesn't mean he doesn't know a thing or two about leadership.
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Old 03-10-2013, 14:12   #40
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The Chief is correct. I've seen the same things he has.

And aparently suffer the same reading disability.

Others may watch cop shows and think they know how things work, but in the real world, 1911's are impractical for police work. There are simply better options.

It is simply not practical to think that we can resurrect the Colonel and have him train every cop on the road (not to mention the desk slugs) so that they can obtain some level of sophistication and wear a barbeque gun in the field.

Not sure how you have come to believe I want to put 1911's in the hands of police officers.


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Old 03-10-2013, 14:13   #41
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HappyGuy, frankly you are now being rude simply because you wish to be. I see no point in continuing on with this banter.

Have a wonderful life.
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Old 03-10-2013, 14:15   #42
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HappyGuy, frankly you are now being rude simply because you wish to be. I see no point in continuing on with this banter.

Have a wonderful life.
Twisting my words even after I called you on it isn't rude?

I wish you the best as well.

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Old 03-10-2013, 14:21   #43
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Gee, I guess I was lucky. We got 4 days, but that included shotgun.


http://foresthills.patch.com/article...raining-report
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Old 03-10-2013, 17:25   #44
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The S&W Model 57 or Model 58 revolver chambered in .41 Magnum would be ideal for park rangers, game wardens, and other rural law enforcement agencies that may have to contend with large wild animals in a self defense scenario.

Use the standard loads for criminals, use the full magnum loads for bear.
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Old 03-10-2013, 18:48   #45
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Your comments in red are way out of line. Just because Chief doesn't list his actions in his sig line doesn't mean he doesn't know a thing or two about leadership.
Chief's opinion of his officers ability conveys a lot that neither you nor he realize.

This discussion is a lot less about guns than it is about an elitist attitude.

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Old 03-10-2013, 19:00   #46
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Happyguy:.

How many men have you trained in the use and handling of firearms?

Asnwer that question if you can.
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Old 03-10-2013, 19:23   #47
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Happyguy:.

How many men have you trained in the use and handling of firearms?

Asnwer that question if you can.
I have run a range with 30 men on the line at a time (with two assistants).

They all had prior but somewhat limited training.

Edit: And no, none of them were shooting 1911's.

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Old 03-10-2013, 19:29   #48
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The sad thing is, you guys run down the average cop as being incapable of flicking off a safety and then you wonder why the guy on patrol regards you pencil pushers with disdain.

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Old 03-10-2013, 19:54   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
I have run a range with 30 men on the line at a time (with two assistants).

They all had prior but somewhat limited training.

Edit: And no, none of them were shooting 1911's.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

As I thought, you have zero credibility when it comes to discussing training methodology and criticizing a man who has trained tens of thousands of police officers in the largest and finest police firearms training unit in the world. A man who has conducted range sessions wherein literally millions of rounds have been sent downrange.

You sit there typing out your edicts in your usual braying and abrasive manner with no real world experience to back it up. In short, you have no idea what the HELL you are talking about. But let's face it that has never stopped you before. Why should it interrupt the flow of effluvium from you now.
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Old 03-10-2013, 19:56   #50
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As I thought, you have zero credibility when it comes to discussing training methodology and criticizing a man who has trained tens of thousands of police officers in the largest and finest police firearms training unit in the world. A man who has conducted range sessions wherein literally millions of rounds have been sent downrange.

You sit there typing out your edicts in your usual braying and abrasive manner with no real world experience to back it up. In short, you have no idea what the HELL you are talking about. But let's face it that has never stopped you before. Why should it interrupt the flow of effluvium from you now.
Spoken like a man destined to be a great chief in his own right someday.

I have been totally honest with you about my experience. So sorry it doesn't meet with your standards.

They can't operate a safety yet we trust them to make instant life and death decisions?

It's about time you guys were honest with yourself about your attitude toward the rank and file.

I'm done now. Carry on.

Edit: To the OP, those choices were pretty good considering what was available in those days.

Also I apologize for my part in derailing what could have been a great thread.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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