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Old 03-08-2013, 14:31   #1
ULVER
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Elmer Keith & Col. Jeff Cooper On Guns & Ammo For Police! lol!

Years ago, when people still put pen to paper, I used to correspond with all the classic names. Legends Elmer Keith and Col. Jeff Cooper were two.

On the subject of police weapons and loads, looking back it was kinda funny.

Elmer believed the ultimate police weapon was the S&W model-57 in .41 Magum. He liked the original police load of a 200gr. SWC @ 900fps, but when the police load was "warmed-up" to 210-grains @ 1,150 he kinda liked it. No over-penetration there!

"Better for shooting into the car, of fleeing bank robbers." Like a 1934 Ford with Bonnie & Clyde inside?

Col. Cooper believed every cop should carry a cocked & locked Colt .45 ACP, with military FMJ. I was constantly reminded, "it "knocks 'em down 90% of the time with one shot." "The 9mm was useless, and one of the reasons the Germans lost the war." K...

Thoughts>?

I told him once, that one PD used "stake-out squads" to curb robberies. Boy, did it ever! Usually with fatal results. The gun was the M2 carbine with & 110gr. soft-points.

Jeffco thought Thompson subs would be better, and they were around on the surplus market to law enforcement. Load of course: FMJ. The 90% thing and all that.

The shotgun was also a good choice. He liked the 12-gauge (Ithaca IIRC) and 3-inch magnum, 00 buckshot. Perfect choices for crowded "non & pop" groceries, or a a 7-11 on a Saturday night!
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:05   #2
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:22   #3
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I think anything Cooper and Keith had to say about handgun design and carry, bullet weight, caliber and velocity, and fight-stopping power would be interesting and informative. Jeff Cooper's commentaries, which he continued to write until his death in 2006, are available online. They are filled with gems and he was very aware of the then-latest in handgun invention and bullet design, which includes most of what we have now. Just as an example, cruise through his comments on the development of the 10mm and its subsequent incarnation in the .40 S&W.

You would do us all a great service if you would reduce the best correspondence to, for example, a blog or a long post on this forum. If you need help transcribing, I'll bet there would be volunteers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:23   #4
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
While the steel is thinner these days, it is much stronger. FD's are having to upgrade their cutting equiment to cut through the new cars.

I'm surprised both of them didn't just recommend 88 Magnums. Did they think Bill Jordan was a sissy for liking the 357 Mag?
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Old 03-09-2013, 05:30   #5
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When the IPSC Nationals were held in Virginia Beach in the early '80's, I spent the better part of an afternoon setting in a trailer with Jeff Cooper discussing...of all things...the history and use of the sword in battle. (He had a strong interest in the blade) That was the year he pronounced to the shooting world the greatness of the D&D "Bren Ten". I got to shoot a sample he had, but in .45acp. MHO was that it was kind of a "clunk". The Col. was, if nothing else, opinionated.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:01   #6
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:54   #7
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:27   #8
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.

But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:31   #9
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Quote:
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But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:35   #10
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My brush with such things was getting to know Col. Rex Applegate. (I have all of his books inscribed to me) . Spending time with him was interesting. He could pull out something from his personal experience that was relevant to almost any topic. Like Cooper, he was "opinionated".
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:50   #11
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Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.

And various other deputies with shotguns + other serious hardware.


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Old 03-09-2013, 12:07   #12
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And various other deputies with shotguns + other serious hardware.


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Old 03-09-2013, 12:30   #13
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.

Yep, me too amigo !

I've never had a problem with harball. Still carry it a good deal of the time in the M1911 'when in town.' The FP's are best.


Take care my friend !




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Old 03-09-2013, 15:08   #14
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One of the proudest days of my life was accepting my E ticket and a handshake from Col. Cooper. Spend a week under his tutelage and you will come to know just how high you can achieve.

He was a truly intimidating man, and did not suffer fools or duffers easily. He sought excellence in everything and everyone.
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Old 03-09-2013, 15:18   #15
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Well, it's one thing to toss out recommendations when you have no responsibility as to their end results.

Equipping large numbers of law officers who are occasional firearms users, often indifferent to their weapons as well, with heavy recoiling (.41 mag) or complex weapons systems (1911 pistols) just doesn't work out in the real world.
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Old 03-09-2013, 16:39   #16
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Gosh, maybe there should be something like, oh, standards that an officer should have to achieve and maintain with regard to firearm proficiency...

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Old 03-09-2013, 16:59   #17
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Jim Cirillo had much to say about modern day gunfighting.

So did Bill Jordan.

Them along with Keith and Cooper all saw the elephant and lived to tell the tails.

One can learn much from reading their writings.

Regards,

Olde School

P.S. If it's not a .357 then it better have a 4 as the first number.
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Old 03-09-2013, 22:47   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
Well, it's one thing to toss out recommendations when you have no responsibility as to their end results.

Equipping large numbers of law officers who are occasional firearms users, often indifferent to their weapons as well, with heavy recoiling (.41 mag) or complex weapons systems (1911 pistols) just doesn't work out in the real world.
M1911 a complex weapon system ! Please man come on.

Maybe to the not so well trained cop/civilian. But Not to me or those I know who carry them, including my cop realitives and those in SVU, and one a girl, my neice. Pull, flick off a slide safety, and shoot, in one fluid motion. Cocked and locked. I shoot it as fast 'and on point of aim', as I can a Glock.

I see nothing complex about a M1911... Perhaps I misunderstood ya!

And I am not trying to argue with ya, not at all, just never heard anyone call it a complex gun/system !


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Old 03-10-2013, 10:34   #19
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I will clarify my words. For intensely interested individuals (people who will take proper training and regularly practice -under supervision of a professional instructor-) or police or special ops personnel who are under supervision, take regular sophisticated training and have a good support structure should their sidearms need servicing, then the 1911 platform is fine.

I've had to deal with training thousands of less than interested police officers (I served in the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit). That's one of the reasons the dept went to handguns such as the Glock, with its "safe-action."

It's simple to say "give 'em more training." The problem is, you have a finite training budget, for all purposes. Administrators have to come up with practical and task specific tools (sidearms and related equipment) that will work for the majority of the personnel they're training.

The decision is not emotional, based on what the administrator "likes," but rather on empirical observations, field proven designs and how their personnel will likely respond to the equipment authorized them.

Once you have a responsibility for such decisions your outlook changes. Firearms, regardless of how much you enjoy them, become a tool, to be carefully chosen for use by large numbers of people who hold no interest in them.

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:41   #20
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I will clarify my words. For intensely interested individuals (people who will take proper training and regularly practice -under supervision of a professional instructor-) or police or special ops personnel who are under supervision, take regular sophisticated training and have a good support structure should their sidearms need servicing, then the 1911 platform is fine.

I've had to deal with training thousands of less than interested police officers (I served in the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit). That's one of the reasons the dept went to handguns such as the Glock, with its "safe-action."

It's simple to say "give 'em more training." The problem is, you have a finite training budget, for all purposes. Administrators have to come up with practical and task specific tools (sidearms and related equipment) that will work for the majority of the personnel they're training.

The decision is not emotional, based on what the administrator "likes," but rather on empirical observations, field proven designs and how their personnel will likely respond to the equipment authorized them.

Once you have a responsibility for such decisions your outlook changes. Firearms, regardless of how much you enjoy them, become a tool, to be carefully chosen for use by large numbers of people who hold no interest in them.

People are responsible for making their own choices in life. If a police officer is issued a 1911 and is so indifferent to its operation that he can't use it in a life and death situation, he has made a bad choice.

There is nothing wrong with a 1911 that accepting personal responsibility won't cure.

Edit: Flicking off a thumb safety and pulling a trigger are about on par as far a complexity goes, IMHO.

Additional edit: It isn't training that is lacking, it's motivation and practice.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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