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Old 03-07-2013, 10:43   #76
Mrs.Cicero
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Originally Posted by kylenewman View Post
What about tax law? That's the only part I think that requires the "permission" of the federal government for marriage.
Chuck the income tax entirely and go to sales tax only. Then the people with the most money, buying the most stuff, are paying the most taxes, and the people with the least, buying the least, pay the least. No benefit, no penalty for marriage. And we can get rid of most of the IRS at the same time.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:47   #77
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I can agree with some of the "liberal" positions, but am curious at the remarks that indicate Republicans should "become liberals" if they want to win elections.
We've perverted the definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" beyond all recognition.

Being in favor of liberty = liberal. That's what the word used to mean. We use it differently now, but this idea we have now that Republican = conservative and Democrat = liberal is mind-bogglingly stupid. There are lots of very, very stupid things that the Republican party stands for and many of them are not "conservative" things. No one can be opposed to gay marriage and still honestly claim to be a true conservative.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:49   #78
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I'm sick to death of GLBT "rights" issues. You HAVE all the same rights I do right now.
That's simply not true.

You or I have the right to visit our spouse in the hospital even if that person is unconscious and unable to consent. It's an implied part of the marriage agreement.

A gay person has no such right to visit their partner.

There are a multitude of other examples, large and small. I totally agree with the person who said "you're not Rosa Parks and this is nothing like the CRA in the 60's" but to deny it entirely is wrong.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:50   #79
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Originally Posted by Short Cut View Post
I agree with helping the less fortunate. The blind, crippled, mentally unstable and poor etc..
"Helping the less fortunate" always ends up meaning taking money from those who have it and giving it to those who do not.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:55   #80
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Marriage for some Christians and Jews goes beyond Government. It is thought of to be ordained by God Almighty as a relationship between one man and one woman. Suddenly, after 10,000 years we learn we have been wrong? I don't think so.
If government chooses to redefine the word "marriage" in the context of government, it affects religious people not a bit.

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The ideal compromise is to give Gay people the benefits and rights via a Civil union.
So "separate but equal"? We've tried that before as a nation, didn't work out so well.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:23   #81
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Regarding the so called "separation of church and state."
It seems that the interpretations of the First Amendment by the courts have morphed into freedom from, rather than freedom of religion as viewed by the public in general.

No, I don't identify with left leaning things.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:29   #82
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
That's simply not true.

You or I have the right to visit our spouse in the hospital even if that person is unconscious and unable to consent. It's an implied part of the marriage agreement.

A gay person has no such right to visit their partner.

There are a multitude of other examples, large and small. I totally agree with the person who said "you're not Rosa Parks and this is nothing like the CRA in the 60's" but to deny it entirely is wrong.
Any person over the age of consent has the right to marry anyone of the opposite gender also over the age of consent. That spouse may certainly visit their spouse in the hospital. If anyone wants someone of the same gender to be able to visit them in the hospital, they can simply give that person healthcare power of attorney.

The next argument I usually hear is that "I" have the right to marry the person I love, and everyone else should have that right, too. That doesn't work, though, because we don't allow pedophiles to marry the children they claim to "love," and we don't (yet) allow polygamous or polyandrous marriages among a crowd of people who "love" each other. We don't allow people to marry adult mental incompetents they "love." "Love" is a bs reason for the gov't to use to define marriage.

My solution would still solve the problem better than anything anyone else has offered. Get the gov't out of the marriage business entirely. The gov't can offer civil unions to any mentally competent person over the age of consent, ensuring determination of next-of-kin, inheritance, benefits... hell if they actually wrote the law correctly, they could fix the current problems with alimony awards. Marriages would be performed by a church which determines whom it will marry and whom it won't, and neither a civil union nor a marriage would require the other.

What is wrong with this? Everyone gets what they want. Civil Unions with bennies, Marriages with the blessing of God, churches that can act within their conscience, and the gov't still gets the price of the license. Why is this a problem?
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:30   #83
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What are liberal/leftist ideas that you are sympathetic to or at least can understand why a lot of people think it is a good idea? (and why?)

That doest mean you agree or support it (of course it could mean that) It simply means what I asked. What are some of the ideals of liberalism/ left leaning thought that you get?

For example. I am sympathetic to gay marriage.


Given the things said around here, I know plenty of you are sympathetic to price controls, unions, wage caps, socialized medicine...and a lot of other issues.

So, who is first?
Abortion...although a personally repugnant procedure, having the GOVERNMENT tell a woman what she can/cannot do with her OWN body is even MORE repugnant.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:31   #84
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Abortion...although a personally repugnant procedure, having the GOVERNMENT tell a woman what she can/cannot do with her OWN body is even MORE repugnant.
I find murder more repugnant.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:41   #85
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
If government chooses to redefine the word "marriage" in the context of government, it affects religious people not a bit.



So "separate but equal"? We've tried that before as a nation, didn't work out so well.
The gay marriage debate is all about the tax code...they want their bennies just like us "breeders".

If we went to the Fair Tax or a flat tax for EVERYONE, this issue, IMO, would disappear.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:45   #86
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I find murder more repugnant.
This is exactly the problem...

No one side...the "No Abortions Ever" pro-life crowd and the "Abortions for Everyone!" pro-choice will EVER get what they want.

This issue will never be resolved. I thereby default to the individual who, ultimately, has to live with the consequences of their decision.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:47   #87
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seems a majority here are supporting gay marraige, or are against legislating it didnt think it would be that high. A good sign.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:47   #88
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I have no problem with gay marriage whatsoever. I support a gay man or woman's right to be as miserable as the rest of us. Seriously...it just doesn't bother me, nor does it cheapen or demean my marriage, or my right to be married. If anyone or anything cheapened or demeaned my marriage, it would have been the two people involved in it.

I am also pro-choice. My hope is that women would CHOOSE not to have an abortion. But I do not believe you can legislate morality. Moreover, since I do not have a vajayjay...I don't feel comfortable telling someone else what they should be doing with a situation that is completely their responsibility. Their body, their choice. Of course, this is in general conflict with the vast majority of liberal ideas, where they have no issue telling everyone else how to live and what to do in infinitum...but I'll let them shoulder the mantle of hypocrisy. For me, I'll have none of it.
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Last edited by Hawkwood; 03-07-2013 at 11:50.. Reason: apparently the medically correct term for a female reproductive organ is not appropriate language.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:52   #89
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America no longer has the right to look down upon the SS or Gestapo or anyone complicit in the Holocaust. They only killed 6-12 million people. We have killed over 50 million in our death camps.

ANY national politician should be forced to watch an abortion being performed prior to voting on any bill pertaining to it. The Catholic Diocese serving Wichita, KS showed one performed on a child in the latter stages of pregnancy one Sunday evening on local TV in the 1980's. I still squirm thinking of it. I became Pro Life that night.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:55   #90
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problem with abortion is both sides are to the extremes. I say before life signs, yes, after, no. When the transition is made from group of celss to living human no more abortion.

The life begins at conception crowd and the unregulated abortion on demand crowd are way too crazy to ever compromise.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:33   #91
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Gay marriage, pro choice, separation of church and state. I think religion should not be a factor in any laws and freedom includes choices too.


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Pretty much my stance as well. In a truly free society the individual has the right to choose their course in life and they accept the consequences of those choices. Our society is not free and hasn't been for some time.

Religion again is a personal choice to engage in and one mans religion should not be the dictate of law for all men, regardless what their dogma dictates. Again in a truly free society where the recognition of God's granting of free will all men should be able to live their life and exercise their choices without having others deny or denounce them for their choices.

If you are of a religious bent then it is not our place to determine innocence or guilt of a persons choice of lifestyle and beliefs. That is for the deity to decide. Now in the case of capital crimes or crimes against others that do not result in death or injury then the onus falls upon we the people to try those accused in a fair court then punish in accordance with findings based on evidence and fact.

Same goes with women and their right to choose what to do with their body. It is not mans place to dictate right or wrong, again if you are of religious bent then the deity will make the final arbitration. It is not ours to make.

Also as pointed out by others, environmentalism to a point. I do believe we need to be better caretakers of our environment that we can find a nice balance of carbon based, nuclear and "green" energy production methods. I like clean air and water... but not at the expense of deterring the freedoms of people. I also believe we need to be better at managing our wildlife resources. We as a species are intelligent enough to see the damage we do, we can still enjoy hunting and such but we need to be a bit better at managing it. And I mean both ways.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:37   #92
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Gay marriage proponents have a political agenda: to force the public to accept an aberration of Nature as normal. I accept that they exist & in all likelihood are born that way. However, why is it that these same people who want me to accept a genetic aberration balk at accepting any other human predisposition for any other given group? Due
to their agenda they have selective reasoning.


Shame used to be a wonderful societal glue that induced people to adhere to social norms. Look at the society of today and then tell me straight faced that we're better off.
But you are basing your opinion of aberration based on religious text, the fact is evident in all of nature that it's not as much of an aberration as you believe it to be. A simple study of other mammals shows it's rather not an aberration and ironically we are the only species that seems to have an issue with it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:39   #93
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Pretty much anything that is the opposite of the religious views.

Small government means small government. Not restrictive in other ways.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:39   #94
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People can marry trees for all I care. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

On a more serious note, as someone who spends a great deal of time in the wilderness public lands must remain sacrosanct, untouched and unexploited. HH
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:45   #95
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What are liberal/leftist ideas that you are sympathetic to or at least can understand why a lot of people think it is a good idea? (and why?)

That doest mean you agree or support it (of course it could mean that) It simply means what I asked. What are some of the ideals of liberalism/ left leaning thought that you get?

For example. I am sympathetic to gay marriage.


Given the things said around here, I know plenty of you are sympathetic to price controls, unions, wage caps, socialized medicine...and a lot of other issues.

So, who is first?
Equal rights, partially socialized healthcare (not the abortion we've got now), the right to have control over your own body (suicide, abortion, etc), adherence to separation of church and state, due process, their approach of rehabilitating rather than incarcerating when dealing with people with mental or emotional problems...I'm sure there are more.

I actually agree of a lot of what they stand for. Mind you the Democrats in office, as well as the Republicans in office, today do not represent the values of either party.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:57   #96
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Originally Posted by Mrs.Cicero View Post
Any person over the age of consent has the right to marry anyone of the opposite gender also over the age of consent. That spouse may certainly visit their spouse in the hospital. If anyone wants someone of the same gender to be able to visit them in the hospital, they can simply give that person healthcare power of attorney.

The next argument I usually hear is that "I" have the right to marry the person I love, and everyone else should have that right, too. That doesn't work, though, because we don't allow pedophiles to marry the children they claim to "love," and we don't (yet) allow polygamous or polyandrous marriages among a crowd of people who "love" each other. We don't allow people to marry adult mental incompetents they "love." "Love" is a bs reason for the gov't to use to define marriage.

My solution would still solve the problem better than anything anyone else has offered. Get the gov't out of the marriage business entirely. The gov't can offer civil unions to any mentally competent person over the age of consent, ensuring determination of next-of-kin, inheritance, benefits... hell if they actually wrote the law correctly, they could fix the current problems with alimony awards. Marriages would be performed by a church which determines whom it will marry and whom it won't, and neither a civil union nor a marriage would require the other.

What is wrong with this? Everyone gets what they want. Civil Unions with bennies, Marriages with the blessing of God, churches that can act within their conscience, and the gov't still gets the price of the license. Why is this a problem?
Wow.....just.....wow.

Marriage has been around FAR longer than any Christian faith group, so trying to say "it's a church thing" is incredibly arrogant. Staking a claim on something that existed before the Church? Really?

And then you come back to the pedophile thing, and that stupid, STUPID comment that so many people have used about "any person over the age of consent has the right to marry anyone of the opposite gender also over the age of consent."

Pedophilia is NOT THE SAME! You said it yourself, the determining factor is CONSENT. A child cannot consent.

Think about it this way, if you insist on using pedophilia as an excuse: Gay marriage is illegal at the federal level right now. That has remarkably stopped all pedophilia, right? That's the same stupid argument as holding up Chicago's gun ban to demonstrate how gun control works: Guns were illegal there for nearly 3 decades, and completely did away with firearms homicides, right?



The pure hypocrisy in some people between the gay marriage and gun rights issues is astonishing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:59   #97
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I don't. Whoever they sleep with of their own volition is their business. However just as well, I don't wish to be inundated via a radical Leftist Press and the "Hollywood homos" (James Carville's words) that it is a "normal" lifestyle when it's clearly not or how else did we get here?

What's next on the Liberal agenda? Pedophilia? We've raised a generation with no shame that has given us the current POS in the White House and his minions who are completely devoid of any moral codex except that with which to maintain power. Only apparatchiki such as this would be able to deny the correlation as well as their opiated followers.

Refuse the Kool-Aid.
I very much agree!! So sad to see all the support for murder and gay rights in this thread.
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Old 03-07-2013, 13:02   #98
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I don't see why people get so worked up by gay people getting married, do they stay up all night worried that gay sex is happening somewhere in the world? Is their day affected by the fact a couple down the street of the same sex is married? just stay out of peoples lives, they stay out of yours, alls good.
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Old 03-07-2013, 13:06   #99
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I very much agree!! So sad to see all the support for murder and gay rights in this thread.
Just because one is against gov regulation on a issue does not mean they support said issues.

I don't plan on having a gay marriage or abortion.

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Old 03-07-2013, 13:08   #100
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Wow.....just.....wow.

Marriage has been around FAR longer than any Christian faith group, so trying to say "it's a church thing" is incredibly arrogant. Staking a claim on something that existed before the Church? Really?

And then you come back to the pedophile thing, and that stupid, STUPID comment that so many people have used about "any person over the age of consent has the right to marry anyone of the opposite gender also over the age of consent."

Pedophilia is NOT THE SAME! You said it yourself, the determining factor is CONSENT. A child cannot consent.

Think about it this way, if you insist on using pedophilia as an excuse: Gay marriage is illegal at the federal level right now. That has remarkably stopped all pedophilia, right? That's the same stupid argument as holding up Chicago's gun ban to demonstrate how gun control works: Guns were illegal there for nearly 3 decades, and completely did away with firearms homicides, right?



The pure hypocrisy in some people between the gay marriage and gun rights issues is astonishing.
You not only hit the nail on the head, you did so with a sledgehammer...especially the part in bold. HH
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