GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2013, 11:11   #26
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,403
This again? Really?

Posts #2 & #3 were nicely done. Read them again.

People often only see what they expect to see. Perception can certainly cloud reality.

It's important to learn to really see what's there to be seen, and then be able to use good judgment to employ good decision-making skills, based upon training & experience.

I remember encountering some picture threat targets of this type (pregnant female) a while back during some quals.

Considering that people unlawfully using guns as deadly weapons are still people, in all their variety, it didn't seem that odd to me.

Remember when it was discovered that some people (like in the military) were reluctant to shoot at even human-shaped outlines (silhouettes)? Training is more than introducing simple skillsets. Mindset is more than just having a philosophy or atttiude. Being able to make decisions under stressful situations is only beneficial if they're good decisions.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 03-03-2013 at 11:15..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:14   #27
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustin View Post
Perhaps this has been touched on before but it's just too shocking to let go... They spent 2 million on these targets...

"No more hesitation targets-Homeland security and police depts. request targets for shooting practice to help desensitize law enforcment to shooting average americans."

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...age-americans/

If this isn't a blatant example of what they are planning on doing with their 2 billion hollow points then I don't know what is.

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/02/dh...an-gun-owners/

Door to door confiscation?

If the time for it ever comes, I pray I will have the courage to respond appropriately to anyone who comes to take away my liberty - regardless of whether they are operating under "color of law", and regardless of what clothing, insignia, or metal trinkets they are wearing.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:26   #28
nursetim
Senior Member
 
nursetim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: liberalville N. M.
Posts: 6,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
The frightening thing, is that is sometimes a reality. I was down, many years ago in some thick brush catching illegal aliens by the Rio Grande. It was also bordered the hood, ghetto, whatever you prefer. I saw a scatter of legs through the brush, and gave pursuit. Through, the glimpses of brusth and bamboo I caught the shilouette of a 1911 .45 ACP. So, I draw my pistol, and give chase. The person with the 1911 raises it up, I raise mine and put pressure on the trigger. The brush opens, and I see a kid with a friggin lifelike BB gun. I don't know who was more freaked out by the encounter, me or hiim.

The concept of shooting a kid with a realistic looking BB gun pointed at you, was not a happy thought. Dying is also not a happy thought. In a perfect world, these guys parents would need a beating for letting their kids run around in an area frequented by violent guides (coyotes) drug cartels, and the Mexican Military.
My heart goes out to you brother. That is a nightmare situation. While you would have been justified legally, that is small comfort for the sleepless nights or nights lost to nightmares. Thank God things worked out like they did. Parenting fail that, as you rightly pointed out, deserves a caning.
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium. - I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.
nursetim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:28   #29
nursetim
Senior Member
 
nursetim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: liberalville N. M.
Posts: 6,629
Didn't our country's enemies use children, to go hug GIs, wired with explosives? Effective no?
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium. - I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.
nursetim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:32   #30
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Ironically, on most targets and shooting simulations, the firearm gets hit, because it is the percieved threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Interesting. Not "my" center of mass, but interesting nonetheless.
Yep, not uncommon for the subconscious "threat-focus" influence to make itself felt in qual/training situations. (As well as in real life)

In quals/training it's sometimes interesting to see the surprise of a lot of the LE with whom I've worked when they first realize that a significant number of their "aimed hits" were clustered on & around the gun visible in the large picture threat targets.

I've yet to have anyone tell me they intentionally aimed for the gun. More often than not, they ask me why their hits were more centered around the gun, as it's seemingly a real surprise to them ... especially since they really thought they were aiming at the threat target's COM.

Working, training & testing/evaluating the "software" is every bit as important as working on the "hardware", you know?
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 03-03-2013 at 11:35..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:39   #31
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,628
Homeland Security includes Customs & Border Protection, ICE, Coast Guard, TSA, Secret Service and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Do any of those agencies engage in law enforcement and require ongoing training?
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:50   #32
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
Homeland Security includes Customs & Border Protection, ICE, Coast Guard, TSA, Secret Service and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Do any of those agencies engage in law enforcement and require ongoing training?
Yes. With the exception that the Coast Guard are considered military personnel with all the comensurate benefits.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:54   #33
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by nursetim View Post
My heart goes out to you brother. That is a nightmare situation. While you would have been justified legally, that is small comfort for the sleepless nights or nights lost to nightmares. Thank God things worked out like they did. Parenting fail that, as you rightly pointed out, deserves a caning.
Thanks. It is not something you easily forget, even 10 years later.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:03   #34
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post


This is not to mention that I don't believe that most L.E. Agencies train with hollow point ammo, do they?
Many do, and more and more are changing to training exclusively with duty ammo. You have to train realistically, and that means the same ballistics and recoil. Woe be unto the training division and chief when a lawsuit comes down and failure to properly train is found to have occurred.
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all

Last edited by ateamer; 03-03-2013 at 12:04..
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:06   #35
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
Many do, and more and more are changing to training exclusively with duty ammo. You have to train realistically, and that means the same ballistics and recoil. Woe be unto the training division and chief when a lawsuit comes down and failure to properly train is found to have occurred.
My quals are all done with duty ammo. Those are the rules.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:15   #36
MaxxAction
Senior Member
 
MaxxAction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 4,354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
My quals are all done with duty ammo. Those are the rules.
Hey Bro...

appreciate what you do. I have often said I don't know how one does such a job and keeps their sanity.

As far as quals, that I can see, but when you go to the range to practice, are you using HP ammo? Or something that is more of a range ammo, frangible, fmj stuff?
__________________
Will Wrestle You For Food
MaxxAction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:31   #37
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,628
At my agency, we do 100% of our training and quals with duty ammo.
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:52   #38
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullClip View Post
I figure they can be of many diverse and various appearances.

But I suspect that the type threats represented in the targets are a "minority" of violent criminals who endanger law enforcement....or other government agents.
In the last couple of months alone, at least two "grandfatherly" guys made the national news. The first was in NY, where he call 9-1-1 to lure in FF and first responders, then shot and killed them. The second shot and killed a school bus driver, kidnapped a 8 y.o. off the school bus, then barricaded themselves in a bunker for 4 or 5 days.

Again, more power to anyone who, in their mind, has a clear and unambiguous image of what a deadly threat look like.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 03-03-2013 at 13:21..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:52   #39
Ragnar
Senior Member
 
Ragnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sometimes here, sometimes there
Posts: 11,720


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post
Not mad...

just curious. This is from an article on investors business daily.

In a puzzling, unexplained development, the Obama administration has been buying and storing vast amounts of ammunition in recent months, with the Department of Homeland Security just placing another order for an additional 21.6 million rounds.

The 21.6 million rounds is the most recent that I know of, and the primary sourcing for the 21.6 million is lousy writers with agendas at Prison Planet (infowars). Any cursory reading of the actual purchase order tells you it was for 240,000 rounds. Given that the order was for the Western FLETC, I'd say that it was justifiable.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=23906

As for the 1.6 billion rounds, that story has ballooned, again with agendas.

The contracts are for "up to" 450 million per year for 4 years, with an option for a 5th year. Not the key phrase "up to". The contracts were what are called "indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity", which are commonly used when the contractee can't determine exactly how much they need or when they need it.

In the DHS case, it keeps the supplier on contract so that when they want more they don't have to re-bid the contract and drag out delivery times.

Given that DHS and its agencies have tens of thousands of armed agents, I'm less than surprised that they need several million rounds a year. What surprises me is that so few of the incensed and outraged can't think rationally enough to figure it out themselves.
Ragnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:57   #40
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,126
It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.

Last edited by Bruce M; 03-03-2013 at 13:58..
Bruce M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:07   #41
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.
...that spray chemtrails...
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:58   #42
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
It is not that they bought 450,000,000,000 rounds a year that frightens me, it is that they are being delivered... ...by drones.
Drones armed with 9mm and .40 cal miniguns? I am impressed by how unimpressive that is.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:10   #43
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,177


The lack of logic that can be displayed by some "gun owners" is shocking. Conservatives try to act like liberal are the only ones who let emotion rule their life. Pfft.

Last edited by ray9898; 03-03-2013 at 19:26..
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:18   #44
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,598
So the answer to the question "Who is the real enemy?" is.. idiots who breath and breed.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 15:47   #45
pizza_pablo
USN Retired
 
pizza_pablo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keith View Post
Methinks the photos of the targets show 'normal' people with handguns POINTED at the shooting trainee. My interpretation is that an offender can look like the sweet old lady, pregnant woman etc. It is a leap to assume that the local gendarmerie and HS is being prepped to shoot the local innocent populace. The outfit that puts out this info is in the business of right-wing propaganda....what is their motive but to rev up the retarded paranoiacs.
Like the one beat up, by the "officers" or "agents", in the Katrina confiscation video, for having a snubby, for protection?
__________________
If liberals don't want us to treat every Muslim like a terrorist, why do they treat every gun owner like the Newtown shooter?
pizza_pablo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 06:19   #46
Rustin
Senior Member
 
Rustin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza_pablo View Post
Like the one beat up, by the "officers" or "agents", in the Katrina confiscation video, for having a snubby, for protection?
But, but, it can't hapen here!

Some people just want to bury their head in the sand...
Rustin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 08:40   #47
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,906


Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
Yep, not uncommon for the subconscious "threat-focus" influence to make itself felt in qual/training situations. (As well as in real life)

........

I've yet to have anyone tell me they intentionally aimed for the gun. More often than not, they ask me why their hits were more centered around the gun, as it's seemingly a real surprise to them ... especially since they really thought they were aiming at the threat target's COM.

Working, training & testing/evaluating the "software" is every bit as important as working on the "hardware", you know?
Apparently you never watched the "Lone Ranger". He was quite good at it. The first liberal in movies. He realized there are no "bad guys". Only guys with bad guns, so he took out the real threat, the bad gun.
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 15:02   #48
bluesman55
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: OHIO
Posts: 19
I guess its OK for the DHS to buy 2700 armored troop carriers. They will need those at the airport check-in gate. The gestapo has returned. Oh yea I forgot they are for our own good.
bluesman55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 15:14   #49
Glock20 10mm
Use Linux!
 
Glock20 10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of Idiots and Libtards
Posts: 14,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullClip View Post
Here's a little test for y'all with good-guys and bad-guys. You gotta' react quick. Just follow the link and use your "L" or "A" key as needed.

http://ccsn.uchicago.edu/Studies/ShooterEffect/

But unlike the DHS Gestapo targets, I don't think that you'll have to target kids or pregnant women in the link,,,,
Congratulations! And thank you!

This is the end of the study.

We really appreciate your participation: collecting opinions from people like you makes our research possible.

If you enjoyed participating in our study, tell your friends! Feel free to email our link (http://ccsn.uchicago.edu/Studies/ShooterEffect/) to your friends and contacts, or post it on Facebook, Twitter, etc. We hope to collect opinions from a large number of people, and we’ll need your help to reach them all. Thank you for spreading the word!
Your results:

Group Reaction Time Accuracy
Black Armed 594.391304348 91.3043478261%
White Armed 640.65 95.0%
Black Unarmed 770.458333333 87.5%
White Unarmed 717.476190476 71.4285714286%

Hmmm... me thinks I need a bit more practice...
__________________
Using Microsoft is like playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol... the results are always messy
"The Constitution is my Law. The Declaration of Independence my bible. And Freedom my religion." - Me
Thick skin... a must in a free society.
Glock20 10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 15:15   #50
The Fist Of Goodness
Senior Member
 
The Fist Of Goodness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falling into Crime's Dinner Party.
Posts: 2,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post
Hey Bro...

appreciate what you do. I have often said I don't know how one does such a job and keeps their sanity.

As far as quals, that I can see, but when you go to the range to practice, are you using HP ammo? Or something that is more of a range ammo, frangible, fmj stuff?
We use duty ammo, unless the specific range we use (all LE ranges) require "lead free" ammo, then we switch out.

FLETC has switched some of their ranges to Lead Free, and the FAM training center outside Atlantic City is also (I believe 100%) Lead Free.
The Fist Of Goodness is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 17:00.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,468
403 Members
1,065 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42