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Old 03-01-2013, 01:48   #26
Plasticman84
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My Sheriff has said that he will not enforce an AWB. The Sheriff is my boss. Should I still be fired? What about my sheriff?
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:51   #27
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If IL passes a AWB, or a federal AWB were passed, yes.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:52   #28
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Congratulations on being one step above a Nazi attempt.



But you're trying to compare apples and oranges.


Its more like, you work in a fast food restaurant, you walk in and you tell the boss I'm not cooking fries today.



Cops do not make laws. They enforce them. And last I checked, they're not SC justices.


In your mind breaking a free americans' constitutional right is ok. You are comfortable with it so long as its written into some asinine, unjust law. Never mind if it contradicts the bill of rights so many men died for!

To me it's criminal!

I'm assuming you yourself have taken the oath to uphold the constitution? Maybe your interpritation of it is different that mine. Maybe your moral valuesnare different thatn mine.

You are okay with law enforcement or a soldier taking our freedoms. Where do you draw the line?
Hitlers men who killed and or helped kill millions of people where merely following ordered right? Oh excuse me they were doing they're jobs like the mindless drones they where?

Okay

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Old 03-01-2013, 01:58   #29
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In your mind breaking a free americans' constitutional right is ok. You are comfortable with it so long as its written into some asinine, unjust law. Never mind if it contradicts the bill of rights so many men died for!

To me it's criminal!

I'm assuming you yourself have taken the oath to uphold the constitution? Maybe your interpritation of it is different that mine. Maybe your moral valuesnare different thatn mine.

You are okay with law enforcement or a soldier following breaking out freedoms. Where do you draw the line?
Joyless men who killed and or helped kill millions of people where merely following ordered right? Oh excuse me they were doing they're jobs like the mindless drones they where?

Okay

Just because YOU feel its unconstitutional, doesn't mean it is.


Last time I checked, we've got a way to challenge things we think are unconstitutional. And its in use quite often.


Last time I checked, letting cops decide what laws were constitutional wasn't how that was figured out.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:08   #30
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Just because YOU feel its unconstitutional, doesn't mean it is.


Last time I checked, we've got a way to challenge things we think are unconstitutional. And its in use quite often.


Last time I checked, letting cops decide what laws were constitutional wasn't how that was figured out.

My man,

I live in a State that is full laws that are unconstitutional towards the second amendment. I'm disgusted by it every day. You in Alaska are not.
I live in a state where police officers do not enforce many laws agains illegal aliens. I have seen many times law enforcement NOT enforce criminal invaders. I live in Los Angeles where the piece of garbage chief of police gives orders to his officers to not enforce the laws agains illegals which are clearly on the state and federal books.

So please understand how it irks me the wrong way that you are okay with law enforcement ( which many are good men and women ) enforcing unjust and unconstitutional laws.

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:12   #31
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Its not that I'm ok with them enforcing unconstitutional laws.


Its that you and I not liking a law, does not make it unconstitutional.


I'm about making the system work, and working within it to address the issues.


What I can not stand, is abuse of power, and saying "its ok to abuse your power/position, because other people do it/did it"

We have a means to fix the issues, we have a long tested and established way to do it. So damn it, lets actually do something about it with the means we were given.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:49   #32
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I disagree with your view, but I do understand where you are coming from. If I'm to be fired for not enforcing a law that goes against my morals and ethics, so be it. It seems people are quick to jump on law enforcement as the bad guys while they totally ignore the fact that the politicians are the ones that make the laws they disagree with. Most to mes, the very politicians that they vote for. Where we differ is the fact that I don't think we should blindly enforce laws. I'm a citizen first, cop second.

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Old 03-01-2013, 03:28   #33
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I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
You are a brainwashed tool.


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Old 03-01-2013, 03:37   #34
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Before this goes much further, in the beginning of our country, did not a few good men stand against the law of the land?

The Revolutionary War and the drafting of the Declaration of Independance were both acts of high treason and they were the right thing to do.

We owe the people that founded this country every single day for the courage they had to stand firm on their beliefs, even though it was illegal at the time.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:50   #35
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If a cop decides to turn his head and look the other way, that's his choice. But to publicly say that he is not going to enforce a law, is just stupid. Why broadcast your plan?
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:51   #36
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Secondly, in my neck of the woods, politicians are using "police safety" as a way to attempt to get my felow LE on board. A great deal of LEOs have stood up by telling folks that they will not suport actions against the 2nd because they know it has nothing to do with "police safety" at all. In other words, don't use us to falsly push your agenda, most people "in the know" have a pretty good idea of what would make things more safe in this country.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:54   #37
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
So, if you were told by your commander to strafe known civilian noncombatants from your helicopter, you would do it? You wouldn't refuse? Nice.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:08   #38
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So did I, but I don't remember any clause about being able to pick and choose what laws I obeyed.

Last I checked, we have a system to decide what is constitutional, and it isn't "I won't enforce what I don't agree with"

Had they said, "we think X is unconstitutional, and we won't enforce it until the supreme court rules on it" they would have my support. But cops have no place deciding what is, and isn't constitutional.

I think the big difference is that some people just say the words because they have to in order to get the paycheck. This sounds like you.

Others say the words, take them to heart, and take them very seriously.

If a police officers is ordered to arrest a journalist for writing an op-ed unfavorable of a mayor, should he do it? Apparently in your eyes, yes.

The issues in question are so blatantly obvious, that they don't need a SCOTUS ruling. Kelo vs New London shows that the judiciary is out of control, and it appears some public servants are starting to wake up.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:13   #39
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Aren't the sheriffs pursuing this from a Tenth Amendment standpoint?

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:58   #40
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Principle IV: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

This principle could be paraphrased as follows: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following my superior's orders'".
Sometimes good people have to draw a line.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:09   #41
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Sometimes good people have to draw a line.

And we do. It is the blind sheeple of this world that scare the hell out of us.......
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:15   #42
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In my federal oath, I swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Thank you. And thank you for standing up for what is right.

Steve
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:23   #43
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Stick,

I have said here before, and have said in public that I will in no way enforce a full out ban of any kind.

I make no bones about it.

If it should come down to that, it will be considered my resignation effective immediately.

I am glad however that you are not in law enforcement as a street level patrol officer, administration, or anywhere in between. I don't know many departments that will fire you for something so simple as having an opinion and am glad that I can be both a Deputy Sheriff and still have my 1st Amendment rights at the same time, which according to you, should have me fired.

Slippery slope my friend.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:29   #44
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LEO's have ALWAYS had discretion when it comes to enforcing the law. If their department issues an edict that specifies a no-tolerance policy towards certain infractions, then the officer needs to choose whether they want to keep their job if it is found that they are ignoring a direct order from their superiors.

But if said superiors choose to 'look the other way,' then the officer can do the same without violating his oath to uphold the law, as long as it doesn't endanger public safety to do so.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:32   #45
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It's sad we have allowed ourselves to be governed by people who would engineer these types of things to happen.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:32   #46
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Wow this is amazing.

Let me start by saying a man who doesn’t live by his ethics is not a true man.

I was in a similar ethical delimina situation with a job about 5 years. The position I held in a medical device firm wasn´t a low level position. Over half the company reported to me. Anyways, the device we were producing had what I would call an unacceptable rate of failure. The FDA also thought this was true and a product redesign to fix the problem was implemented and devices with the fix were manufacture red. However, millions of dollars worth of existing product was on the shelf. I made the decision to scrap the product (throwing millions in the trash can). The CEO was not happy about this and came to me. The product could not be used in the USA but there was no legal prohibition against using the product in Europe. The CEO told me to ship the product to Europe and it would be implanted there. I refused. I told him the product had an unacceptably high failure rate and was dangerous. He came back and said it was no more dangerous than any of the product that had been implanted before the fix was implemented and told me how much money would be lost. He then went on and told me that he wasn’t asking me to do something, but telling me to do something. I refused. I was then given an ultimatum. Either I ship them to Europe immediately or he would find someone to do my job that would ship them. I refused. He found someone that took my job immediately and agreed to ship. I am sure you can figure out that I was then looking for a new job.

Why does this matter? There comes points where laws conflict with ethics. There was nothing illegal about me shipping product, but it was unethical to ship, sell and implant product where I knew it had an unacceptable failure rate. So, I paid a price to stick by my ethics.

Let me give you a historical example. About 70 years ago, there was man named Graf von Stauffenberg. You might know him as Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg. He decided to take it upon himself, with some co-conspirators, to perform an illegal act. Assassinating a head of state is highly illegal, I believe. He carried through with his illegal act knowing full well the consequences if it failed to produce the required results. The act failed to kill the head of state. He was caught and immediately executed as were co-conspirators. They were LEGALLY executed per the laws for committing an illegal act (crime). It is interesting, that history has judged a criminal who was executed for committing an illegal act, choosing which laws he would follow and which he would not based upon his internal ethics, much differently than those that had him executed. Even when faced with death, not simply being fired from a job, he chose the ethical, yet illegal path.

How do you want to be remembered? As the man who relinquished his internal ethics due to superior orders or the man who stood up for what he believed in? One is a man, the other is a coward.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:33   #47
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Stick,

I have said here before, and have said in public that I will in no way enforce a full out ban of any kind.

I make no bones about it.

If it should come down to that, it will be considered my resignation effective immediately.
A man.

But can you clarify "full out ban"? What ban would you enforce?
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:37   #48
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The lifeblood of the current administration is division and conquest. The already have half of America hating rich people. Now they are working to have half of America hating Police officers. In would like to see the NRA, manufacturers and any LEO leaders that will come together to offer those who are on the front line an option. Any person on patrol could be allowed to purchase the equipment they need from designated local gun shops provided they join the NRA and provided they verify their role as an LEO. Still no departments would be sold to in ban areas. No group sales and sales would be limited to one person and only enough equipment for one person. Just a thought.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:40   #49
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Its that you and I not liking a law, does not make it unconstitutional.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

LE has a duty to the uphold the constitution not individual and clearly unconstitutional laws.

If a complete and total ban went into effect would LE be remiss in their duties if they didn't start kicking down doors confiscating your guns.

I don't think you need a Harvard law degree to know what a duck looks like.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:45   #50
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I applaud their actions, but every single one of them should be fired.


It is not the polices job to decide what law is constitutional or right. Its their job to enforce the law.

Publicly announcing they will not fulfill their oath should be considered a verbal resignation and treated as such.
“I was just following orders.”
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