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Old 02-26-2013, 12:43   #421
JAS104
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Squeeze, I can't rack a slide silently either. Nor do I want to have to.

Folks used to say the sound of their shotgun chambering a round would send most burglars packing. Maybe racking a slide would have the same effect.

My bedside gun is kept in C3, but I have a dandy alarm system that will awaken me and the neighbors. In fact, my alarm system from ADT provides coverage of doors, windows (glass breakage) and motion detectors. Heat and smoke detectors are also integrated into the ADT system. This is my effort to mitigate risk of home invasion and fire for my family. The service is expensive, but its more important than 'stuff' we do without to afford it.

The argument I've heard most against a ready-to-go bedside gun is the risk associated with grabbing it in the darkness before you're fully awake. That makes sense to me.
I have a home alarm system as well. Same gadgets and all. Smoke, glass, door and window, motion, etc. However- When you open the door and the alarm is on, theres a chime but NOT an alarm until 30 seconds. This time is allowed for the homeowner to disarm the alarm if they are coming home or forget. This 30 seconds an intruder can get pretty far into a home (or in my case, my apartment).
So, my Glock is c1 on my nightstand, and my mossy is ready to go right under my bed.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:43   #422
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Squeeze, I can't rack a slide silently either. Nor do I want to have to.

Folks used to say the sound of their shotgun chambering a round would send most burglars packing. Maybe racking a slide would have the same effect.

My bedside gun is kept in C3, but I have a dandy alarm system that will awaken me and the neighbors. In fact, my alarm system from ADT provides coverage of doors, windows (glass breakage) and motion detectors. Heat and smoke detectors are also integrated into the ADT system. This is my effort to mitigate risk of home invasion and fire for my family. The service is expensive, but its more important than 'stuff' we do without to afford it.

The argument I've heard most against a ready-to-go bedside gun is the risk associated with grabbing it in the darkness before you're fully awake. That makes sense to me.
All reasonable points; thank you.

Alarms here? Check! Basically the same as yours.

That said, alarm systems do fail, as ours has, at least once.

If I hear a strange noise and it awakens me, or simply alerts me, I'm on alert, big time. Why? Well let's just say I've been the victim of crime, or come pretty close to being a victim but managed to avoid being one, more times that I'd care to try to count. My perspective is probably quite different from others. But I'm still here, and not paranoid, and don't intend on being a victim. Never have, never will. That said, if someone decides they want to attack you no matter what, I hope and pray you are psychologically ready, at the least, to do what you must not to go down.

The too-groggy-to-be-safe with a handgun doesn't apply chez-moi. Other people, of course it does.

Edit: Guns (even Glocks) at times jam/fail/go kaputsky. Nice to have an extra available, and a good fixed-blade too, such as a KaBar. One never knows...

Last edited by Smooth_squeeze; 02-26-2013 at 12:48..
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:45   #423
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I have a home alarm system as well. Same gadgets and all. Smoke, glass, door and window, motion, etc. However- When you open the door and the alarm is on, theres a chime but NOT an alarm until 30 seconds. This time is allowed for the homeowner to disarm the alarm if they are coming home or forget. This 30 seconds an intruder can get pretty far into a home (or in my case, my apartment).
So, my Glock is c1 on my nightstand, and my mossy is ready to go right under my bed.
30 seconds is better than mine, which is 45 seconds. Still it's better than nothing.
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:22   #424
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I am late to this discussion, but one thing everyone should do is have a friend stand 30-40 feet away from them and then run towards them and see if you can go from a casual, unassuming position, to draw and fire before they are on you. Of course you do this with an empty gun and you set up your drill so you don't have to actually point at your friend so you can be safe (have them run from a different direction). But my guess is that for most people, unless they are standing still and amped up waiting for the exercise to begin, they will have to drill to be able to make this clean draw and fire a shot before they are tackled/stabbed.

Now, throw in rack the slide, and I am just not sure you make it.

I also think that adding an external safety to a Glock is ridiculous. If you don't feel safe with a Glock and require an external safety, then there are plenty of reliable semi-autos out there that offer one and you should really find a platform that fits your needs rather than being so married to a brand. You can still be a "Glock guy" just because you pick a different brand tool for a particular use (in this case, safe carry).

But, hey, I know a guy who carries a J-frame revolver with four rounds. It has an enclosed hammer and he says he gets nervous squeezing it into a tight leather holster, so he stacks the first chamber empty, and says he can just pull the trigger twice in a scenario because he'll probably unload the gun without realizing it anyway. To each, their own...

Last edited by SJShooter; 02-26-2013 at 20:23..
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:39   #425
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Originally Posted by SJShooter View Post

Now, throw in rack the slide, and I am just not sure you make it.

I also think that adding an external safety to a Glock is ridiculous. If you don't feel safe with a Glock and require an external safety, then there are plenty of reliable semi-autos out there...
I accept the risk of an attack that I can't respond to effectively from C3 because (a) the odds of it happening in my case are so low as to be unworthy of concern, and (b) the risk of a ND in C1 is way greater than the probability of needing to quick draw against an attacker, in my opinion.

Adding a manual safety to one of my Glock pistols may seem ridiculous to you, but I already own multiple Glocks, the Cominolli kit is reported to be reliable, and I really like Glock pistols despite the absence of a safety.

I'm not tied to the Glock brand; I tried to find an M&P Shield because of it's factory safety, but the only ones I find are on Gunbroker for $500-$600 plus shipping plus the FFL fee. For $133 I can make a Glock safer.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-28-2013 at 20:27..
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:53   #426
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30 seconds is better than mine, which is 45 seconds. Still it's better than nothing.
The system beep-before-alarm time is adjustable by ADT, as I understand it. I don't know what mine is set for.
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:57   #427
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:27   #428
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(b) the risk of a ND in C1 is way greater than the probability of needing to quick draw against an attacker.
Wow, you really do not trust yourself. Very interesting.

I can think of a million very ordinary quick-draw scenarios. I honestly cannot imagine myself having a ND. I can control my finger and keep it off the trigger, and I obsessively safety check every gun I handle.

How do you picture yourself having a ND? You just don't think you can train yourself to grab the gun without putting your finger on the trigger? You aren't in the habit yet of safety checking your gun when you handle it? Are you afraid you will sit or twist a certain way and the gun will go off in the holster? Do you hold your breath when re-holstering? I'm not being facetious, I am just curious as to how you picture that ND actually happening, because you must have if you've gotten to the point of paying to modify your gun with additional parts. Do you see yourself shooting yourself in the foot like the infamous cop-in-the-classroom youtube video? Do you think you'll put a hole in the side of your dresser because you undress too casually? Please tell me, I am really curious.

On one hand, I kinda get it -- to me carrying a 1911 in C1 has always seemed a little freaky because those triggers are so short. On the other hand, if I had to carry a 1911, I'm pretty sure I could get over it with a combination of logical thinking and training to overcome the area in which I think I am most likely to fail. Oddly, I've never given a C1 Glock any more thought that a revolver with every chamber loaded.

One more question (serious) - if you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty?

Last edited by SJShooter; 02-26-2013 at 22:34..
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Old 02-26-2013, 23:28   #429
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Wow, you really do not trust yourself. Very interesting.

I can think of a million very ordinary quick-draw scenarios. I honestly cannot imagine myself having a ND. I can control my finger and keep it off the trigger, and I obsessively safety check every gun I handle.

How do you picture yourself having a ND? You just don't think you can train yourself to grab the gun without putting your finger on the trigger? You aren't in the habit yet of safety checking your gun when you handle it? Are you afraid you will sit or twist a certain way and the gun will go off in the holster? Do you hold your breath when re-holstering? I'm not being facetious, I am just curious as to how you picture that ND actually happening, because you must have if you've gotten to the point of paying to modify your gun with additional parts. Do you see yourself shooting yourself in the foot like the infamous cop-in-the-classroom youtube video? Do you think you'll put a hole in the side of your dresser because you undress too casually? Please tell me, I am really curious.

On one hand, I kinda get it -- to me carrying a 1911 in C1 has always seemed a little freaky because those triggers are so short. On the other hand, if I had to carry a 1911, I'm pretty sure I could get over it with a combination of logical thinking and training to overcome the area in which I think I am most likely to fail. Oddly, I've never given a C1 Glock any more thought that a revolver with every chamber loaded.

One more question (serious) - if you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty?
You know, SJ, I have tried to explain my particular situation in earlier posts. I have to say, respectfully, we've been over this territory pretty thoroughly before; it would be severely redundant to revisit my opinions and my reasoning in order to address your points.

You and medman really should read through the thread if you want to disagree with things I've said. I welcome your contribution, although I suspect you are both 'mainstream' thinkers about C1 and we could only agree, at best, to disagree.

If you think you'd never have a ND because you're so well trained or experienced or smart, review the NYPD's experience over the past 10 years.

If you can think of a million scenarios requiring a quick draw, know that your lifestyle and mine must be worlds apart.

If you believe that continuously carrying a lethal weapon with one in the chamber is essential to your safe passage through this life, then you probably should investigate finding a safer environment to live in.

I'll look forward to your posts after you catch up on the discussion.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-26-2013 at 23:29..
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Old 02-26-2013, 23:33   #430
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The NYPD publishes an annual report of officer weapon discharges, including unintentional discharges. The following excerpt is from the 2011 report:

"Three of the 13 firearms discharged during purely unintentional incidents were weapons that were not the officers’ regular service or off-duty firearms—two were perpetrator’s weap- ons, and one was an ESU Glock 19 equipped with an under-the-barrel flashlight.
More notably, six of the remaining ten firearms were also manufactured by Glock (three model 19s and three model 26s). In fact, with regard to officers experiencing unintentional dis- charges while loading or unloading their own firearms, 75 percent of such incidents involved Glocks. Their overrepresentation in this category has been seen consistently over the past five years: since 2007, there have been 31 incidents in which officers unintentionally discharged their own firearms during loading/unloading, and 22 of those incidents—71 percent—have involved Glocks."

Yep, them Glock pistols is the safest!!
Since NYPD issue service handguns are Glocks I'm not surprised that Glocks were involved in six out of 13 negligent discharges in 2011. (The seventh Glock was not an issue weapon) I recall reading that NYPD employs 25,000 officers, all presumed extensively trained in the safe handling of issued firearms.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same number of NDs occurred if the issued weapons were Smith & Wesson, Ruger, or any other model with manual safeties. My guess is it's the familiarity of routine coupled with a preoccupied mind that leads to the vast majority of ND incidents, not whether a firearm has or lacks a manual safety.
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Old 02-26-2013, 23:50   #431
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
Mind your manners, medman. You're talkin' to an older gent who will swap ideas and opinions with you till the cows come home as long as you leave your attitude at home. Comments like "stupid, stupid" are better left 'thought but not said'.

Read through the thread. Read only my posts if you really want to understand where I'm coming from. Then, we'll get after it.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-27-2013 at 09:34..
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:01   #432
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Since NYPD issue service handguns are Glocks I'm not surprised that Glocks were involved in six out of 13 negligent discharges in 2011. (The seventh Glock was not an issue weapon) I recall reading that NYPD employs 25,000 officers, all presumed extensively trained in the safe handling of issued firearms.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same number of NDs occurred if the issued weapons were Smith & Wesson, Ruger, or any other model with manual safeties. My guess is it's the familiarity of routine coupled with a preoccupied mind that leads to the vast majority of ND incidents, not whether a firearm has or lacks a manual safety.
You may be absolutely right. Whatever the reason, people who say an ND can't happen to them are denying the truth about human behavior. I'm not suggesting everyone will experience a ND; I'm saying it can happen to anyone, including 22 NYPD officers per year, on average. And remember, they're using 12 lb. triggers. NDs are a fact of life.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-27-2013 at 00:05..
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:11   #433
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If you think you'd never have a ND because you're so well trained or experienced or smart, review the NYPD's experience over the past 10 years.
Pfft. I don't consider cops to be any better trained with firearms just because they carry them. I've met more cops who are handgun ignorant than I care to remember. In fact, some of the sloppiest gun handling I've ever seen has come from police officers, so I do not consider the NYPD having NDs to be significant at all. In fact, I'd be way more surprised if they didn't have them. Many of those guys never shoot except to qualify and yet they handle their guns so often that they don't treat them safely (in my opinion).

And let's not pretend like this is advanced training, here. Just don't touch the trigger. Yes, it is that simple. I've been able to use a stove now for 40+ years without touching the flames. Yes, I'm sure there are chefs who burn their hands all the time. Doesn't mean I am going to touch the flames next time, or ever. I've trained myself not to touch them. Same with the trigger. Anyone who makes it out to be more than that is either really overthinking it, or as I've mentioned, just doesn't trust themselves.

One more point: It is almost certain that these NDs from Glocks would not have been prevented by adding on an external safety. What's more, it isn't even clear that forcing NYPD to carry in condition three would have prevented these.

Last edited by SJShooter; 02-27-2013 at 00:29..
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:15   #434
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You may be absolutely right. Whatever the reason, people who say an ND can't happen to them are denying the truth about human behavior. I'm not suggesting everyone will experience a ND; I'm saying it can happen to anyone, including 22 NYPD officers per year, on average. And remember, they're using 12 lb. triggers. NDs are a fact of life.
And those 12 pound triggers were PULLED! They weren't grazed or accidentally went off. Some yahoo (NYPD or not) didn't check his gun and then pulled the trigger.

People seem to forget that the first word in ND is NEGLIGENT, which is failure to exercise reasonable care. If you exercise reasonable care, you are fine. If you fail to do so, you will have a negligent discharge. Every single one of these hallowed NYPD NDs came when someone was not exercising reasonable care. Your arguments seem to imply that you can take reasonable care and this still might happen.

If you are worried you will ND, then you are worried about yourself that you are not able to exercise reasonable care. In which case, maybe a firearm isn't for you.

Last edited by SJShooter; 02-27-2013 at 00:31..
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:35   #435
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And those 12 pound triggers were PULLED! They weren't grazed or accidentally went off. Some yahoo (NYPD or not) didn't check his gun and then pulled the trigger.

People seem to forget that the first word in ND is NEGLIGENT, which is failure to exercise reasonable care. If you exercise reasonable care, you are fine. If you fail to do so, you will have a negligent discharge. Every single one of these hallowed NYPD NDs came when someone was not exercising reasonable care. Your arguments seem to imply that you can take reasonable care and this still might happen.

If you are worried you will ND, then you are worried about yourself that you are not able to exercise reasonable care. In which case, maybe a firearm isn't for you.
Thanks. Your opinions are shared by most folks who comment on this subject. Good luck and be safe.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:16   #436
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:06   #437
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.....

If you can think of a million scenarios requiring a quick draw, know that your lifestyle and mine must be worlds apart.

If you believe that continuously carrying a lethal weapon with one in the chamber is essential to your safe passage through this life, then you probably should investigate finding a safer environment to live in.
...
Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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Old 02-27-2013, 06:25   #438
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Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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I think that would be a stretch. I've not seen any posts that would come across as wild west. That being said, strange things happen in court.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:00   #439
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
The points you raise have been raised and responded to and raised again and responded to again dozens of times here. Try reading the thread before posting.

Way to troll an otherwise civil and substantive discussion!
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:04   #440
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The Firearms and Tactics Section is tasked with the important responsibility of providing firearms requalification and tactical training to uniformed members of the Department. The principal concern with any firearms instruction is always safety. The Firearms and Tactics Section takes careful steps in creating a safe working and learning environment. All firearms training starts with recruit firearms basic and continues through the in-service semi-annual qualification cycles, both of which continue to be the base essentials of all NYPD firearms training.

The Firearms and Tactics Section Mission:


Develop skills required for the safe and proficient use of firearms
Provide entry level training for newly hired officers
Instruct and re-qualify all uniformed members of the service with firearms
Develop strategies and tactical training to minimize firearms use
Improve firearms safety
The Firearms and Tactics Section conducts the following programs:


Recruit 13 Day Basic and Tactical Firearms Training Program
Semi Annual Firearms Re-Qualification Cycle for approximately 35,000 In–Service Officers
FATS–Training : Firearms simulator scenario based training
Special Weapons Training conducted for Special Operations Division and Highway Patrol
Advanced Tactical Firearms Course for plainclothes personnel
Tactical Pistol Firearms Course for Patrol, Transit and Housing Officers performing patrol related duties
Scenario based training using Simunitions marking cartridges – “force on force” training
Less Lethal Devices Training on Conducted Energy Devices
Less Lethal Device Training on Pepper Spray, Polycarbonate Shield and Velcro Restraining Straps
Tactical Review Sessions for all Uniformed Members of the Service who have discharged their firearm in the line of duty.


http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/tr...m_tatics.shtml
Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

Oh! Lest I forget...roll call training.

Ask yourself how your training stacks up before you start flapping your yap or you may be discovered to be an ignorant yahoo.

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