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Old 02-26-2013, 05:40   #21
merlynusn
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If you have no duty to report and the officer pulled his gun out because the driver's shirt rode up revealing he had a gun, then the officer was wrong. There is no justifiable reason to do that absent something you aren't telling us.

I'm in a duty to notify state. You notify, hand me license, registration, permit. I'll check you out, write/don't write a ticket and you'll be on your way.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:34   #22
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As a ccw driver, I unload my weapon in case I have to go hands on with the officer trying to confiscate my weapon and then follow my wife home for seven miles.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:41   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenOfDreams View Post
Here is example of a perfect traffic stop from my civilian's point of view...
Officer: I clocked you at XX mph in a YY mph zone. May I see your license and registration please.
Me (handing him my license, registration and carry permit): Here you are sir. Just to let you know, I have a concealed weapon permit and I'm carrying right now.
Officer: Where is your gun?
Me: In my back pocket.
Officer: Well, just let it stay there (hands me the speeding ticket).
That's exactly what I have done in the past and it has been a non issue. Just be sure you don't say " I have a gun" first instead of "I have a concealed carry permit". A friend of mine found that out the hard way .
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:54   #24
Kyle M.
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In Ohio you are required to inform, I personally have been stopped twice since I've had my CCW. Both times were DUI check points, I get stopped at these all the time because I'm often out till 4 or 5 A.M. on the weekends. Anyways both times I have been stopped the officer has known I had a CCW because it comes up when he runs my plates. Even though I'm required to inform in both cases I was ask by the officer as soon as he got to the window whether I was carrying, in both cases I was and both times the officer simply said ok and ask for my license, registration, and proof of insurance. Both of these stops occurred in the same town but were conducted by different officers, I actually pass through DUI checkpoints so often that most of the time the officers recognize my car and wave me through because they know I don't drink. Life is simple when you live in a small town with pro gun police.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:20   #25
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
As a ccw driver, I unload my weapon in case I have to go hands on with the officer trying to confiscate my weapon and then follow my wife home for seven miles.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:48   #26
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I'm not an LEO. I have been pulled over maybe once while CCW and once through a checkpoint. I didn't notify the officers either time as I'm not required to here in PA. I think it makes the stop go a little quicker. Also (though extremely rare) there are impersonations and I don't want to give a BG the upper hand in that situation. But in reality, you should be able to sense if something isn't right. I choose not to mention it because the reason for CCW is so that NO ONE knows its there. I keep my info in the visor so its a short reach and there is no revealing mishaps. But I do have a few nonverbal warnings on the back window such as NRA, NAHC, AND Wilson Combat stickers. If you fail to notice that and ask, I won't tell.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:56   #27
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
If I made a traffic stop, and while I was talking to the driver I saw he had a gun, and he hadn't notified me (as required by law), I'd probably screw a gun in his ear too.

The way I see it, there's really no good reason not to tell a cop, who stopped you for breaking a law (albeit a small one), that you've got a gun on you, unless you're up to no good. If you're up to no good, and you've got a gun on you, you can expect to have my gun screwed in your ear.

I'd rather get the jump on someone, and have to dust them them off later with a sincere apology, than let a potential BG with a gun get the jump on me. I like going home to my family at night.

Does that make me a bad guy?
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

Something else to consider: You're in Texas, no? Last I checked, there are alot of Border Patrol, Customs, and ICE agents, not to mention FBI and ATF agents that work the border areas in texas, and as Federal LEOs they have NATIONWIDE concealed carry authority, and State laws regaring CCW notification etc DO NOT APPLY. That means they have NO DUTY to inform you they're carrying. Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is). I would imagine that your chief would then want to have a "heart-to-heart" with you about what went down. Would probably end up costing you getting a nastygram put in your personnel file at least.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:04   #28
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Immediately deploy taser upon finding out suspect is armed regardless of circumstance.

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:00   #29
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Originally Posted by cfrye11 View Post
A week ago I had to call 911 for my 16 month old daughter. While waiting for the ambulance I ran over to unlock the door. I also took off my ccw in holster. I set it on a book shelf. (Only place to put it with out leavong room, i was alone) as I thought at any minute I would be doing CPR .


Once the ambulance arrived they sent me to get a car seat and prepare to get in ambulance. I come back in the room and there is a sheriff standing next to my gun.

He looks at me. Looks at the gun and says aaaaaaaaa... and kinda points.

I said I'm sorry . I carry. I have a permit . He could see it if he wanted And I would put it away of he let me. He said yes put it away and he let me pick it up. He followed me to my bed room and watched me put it on top of my safe.

He never asked for my permit .


I thought this was nice on his part. Dumb on mine for leaving it out. But I really had no choice.

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Wait wait... this is in your own home, presumbly? If so, why the **** were you concerned about what LEO had to say and having a permit?
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:01   #30
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is).
Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:09   #31
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IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02
Also, this.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:10   #32
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Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.

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Old 02-26-2013, 10:23   #33
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you.
Only two people know whether or not that person is intent on harming you. The person with the gun and God.

They don't want to tell you they are armed and you see their gun? Well they get a gun from LE pointed at them. You can sort out the other stuff later.

I guess I know of too many traffic stops going bad in a matter of a split second. Guess that's why we always preach and teach that traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things we do.

Sorry if you disagree.

Fly-since I work where you live I can tell you what will, or should happen, in your scenario. You will/should get a gun from PD pointed at you immediately. You will then be pulled out, disarmed, and handcuffed for the remainder of the stop for officer safety reasons. If you are legally carrying then no charges will come of it. Realize also that you are allowed to carry a loaded weapon inside your car anyhow. Doesn't cover carrying it on you.

My personal behavior from people who have informed me that there are weapons in the car were; asking them to keep it where it is, and not to make any furtive movements while I go back to my car and take care of whatever business I originally intended to deal with, then let them go. Or have them step out of the car, if the gun is somewhere inside the car and they are giving me reason to want to separate them from immediate access, while I go an attend to whatever business I originally intended to deal with.

Did I mention that I have never given someone a traffic ticket who informed me they were carrying or had weapons in the car? I appreiciate the courtesy of them telling me, because they don't have to here, and want to encourage them doing so the next time they meet me or one of my friends. (Note* realize that is if I have merelly stopped them for a traffic reason and not some other investigation).
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:34   #34
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.
I find this entire scenario reeks of BS. I arrested a DEA agent for beating up his girlfriend and possessing a firearm while intoxicated, and his gun was seized. If some Fed supervisor came down and "ripped into" anybody and demanded anything, he would go right into a cell too. I don't work for the Feds nor do I care what they like or demand.

For the record my brother is a Fed and I have worked woth them in the past.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:47   #35
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Guys, thanks for all the responses so far. I'd much rather go straight to you guys to get real world answers, then just posting somewhere like GNG (snicker) and getting a bunch of random BS from people who aren't LE.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:07   #36
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LEO's aren't anti-gun, they just like a head's up when one is in play.
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:11   #37
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In KS, you have to declare your carry firearm (with a vaild permit) only after a LEO asks about it. Otherwise, you are encouraged to declare.

To the OP, first response: I would probably screw a gun to his ear, too. If you don't have the courtesy to tell me there is a firearm where you can reach, I'm not going to be courteous enough to ask questions before placing myself ina tactically advantageous position.

Second response: I have had many CCx holders declare they were carrying. One night, I stopped four vehicles in a row where the driver was carrying, and declared (one was a SUV with three holders inside). It's not a big deal when it's just a traffic infraction and there's no lethal surprises.

I have handled it several different ways. Some examples:

If I have them get out, I have taken the holstered firearm throughout the encounter. After we are finished with my side of things, I have them stand at the rear of their vehicle and put the holstered firearm in the driver door map pocket, shut the door, and told them not to get in until I was in my patrol vehicle and backing up. I also told them not to reach for the firearm until after their door was shut.

If I have them stay in the vehicle, I have told them to leave their window down and make sure they have both hands where I can see them before I re-approach.

I had one encounter with some guys on quads, one guy told me he had a CCW and where his handgun was. I told him to slowly show me where it was. He started unzippin his Carhartt coat. I stopped him, patted him down from the outside, verified there were no weapons he could access without unzipping, and verified where his declared firearm was, and told him not to unzip his jacket.


I get the majority of the drivers I stop out of their vehicle and always ask if they have any guns or knives on them. This satisfies the CCW requirement and gives me an idea who I'm dealing with. I then pat them down. What amazes me is how many people reach for their weapons while telling you they have them.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:13   #38
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It's just so damn much easier to inform. I've been stopped while carrying twice and had other interactions with both state and county police ranging from police business to a casual conversation. I _always_ tell them I'm licensed, carrying, and where it is. Every time, the response has been a polite OK, or a thank you. No tickets, either.

If I were a cop, I'd appreciate the heads up. It's simple courtesy, has very little to do with "rights."
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:16   #39
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I'm not an LEO. I have been pulled over maybe once while CCW and once through a checkpoint. I didn't notify the officers either time as I'm not required to here in PA. I think it makes the stop go a little quicker. Also (though extremely rare) there are impersonations and I don't want to give a BG the upper hand in that situation. But in reality, you should be able to sense if something isn't right. I choose not to mention it because the reason for CCW is so that NO ONE knows its there. I keep my info in the visor so its a short reach and there is no revealing mishaps. But I do have a few nonverbal warnings on the back window such as NRA, NAHC, AND Wilson Combat stickers. If you fail to notice that and ask, I won't tell.

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You do not disclose your CCW status to a Police Officer but have your car full of "I own guns" stickers, and somehow think that "concealed is concealed" still applies?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:16   #40
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What amazes me is how many people reach for their weapons while telling you they have them.
From what I hear, a lot of CCW instructors will tell people to hand you their permit rather than talk about having it and where the pistol is located. There is some biomechanical mumbo jumbo about how the brain wants to take your hands to a place on the body it is thinking about.

Probably explains why I'm caught scratching my balls at home a lot
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