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Old 02-25-2013, 19:51   #1
The-Fly
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Car stop with a ccw driver - what would you do?

Preface: I suspect this may end up being a controversial thread. I post this because I am curious what all of you in CT (that are LE) think about my question. I'm not here to bash or start a "all cops are JBT's" type thread. Nor will I criticize any LE responses to this thread.

Background facts:
I have a family member who is LE in my state. Just to be 100% clear, CCW is shall issue in my state, and you're not legally required to inform LE during a stop. I am not LE myself, but I do have a ccw permit, and know a LOT of people who ccw themselves.

Anyways, during a phone call tonight, my family member (referred to as the FM from here on out) was talking about he dislikes shall issue ccw ("They hand them out like candy here"), and related a story of pulling over a driver for a minor traffic offense (no other reason for the stop other then the traffice violation).

Prior to the stop, running the plates shows nothing of interest. The driver was polite and compliant when contacted, and when requested for his car registration and insurance, reached over to his glover box to get the documents. When the driver reached over, his shirt hiked up a bit, revealing a handgun holstered on the left side hip area.

The FM at this point draws his firearm, points it at the head of the driver, and orders the driver out of the car and detains him.


My first question is this: Given the same situation, what would you do?


My second question related to this. Given the same situation, but lets say the driver informs you promptly during the stop that he's armed and has a permit. He keeps his hands on the steering wheel at all times. Under what circumstances do you feel it would be appropriate to pull the driver out of the car, and handcuff him?
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Last edited by The-Fly; 02-25-2013 at 19:52.. Reason: minor spelling and grammer fixes
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:23   #2
txleapd
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Here in Texas, CHLs are required by law to identify themselves to law enforcement when stopped.

If I made a traffic stop, and while I was talking to the driver I saw he had a gun, and he hadn't notified me (as required by law), I'd probably screw a gun in his ear too.

The way I see it, there's really no good reason not to tell a cop, who stopped you for breaking a law (albeit a small one), that you've got a gun on you, unless you're up to no good. If you're up to no good, and you've got a gun on you, you can expect to have my gun screwed in your ear.

I'd rather get the jump on someone, and have to dust them them off later with a sincere apology, than let a potential BG with a gun get the jump on me. I like going home to my family at night.

Does that make me a bad guy?


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Old 02-25-2013, 20:26   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fly View Post
My second question related to this. Given the same situation, but lets say the driver informs you promptly during the stop that he's armed and has a permit. He keeps his hands on the steering wheel at all times. Under what circumstances do you feel it would be appropriate to pull the driver out of the car, and handcuff him?
I typically let them go with a warning. No frisking or handcuffing involved.

Does that make me a good guy?




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Old 02-25-2013, 20:28   #4
The-Fly
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
I typically let them go with a warning. No frisking or handcuffing involved.

Does that make me a good guy?

Only if you're wearing your hat
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:30   #5
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I don't have to worry about this because carrying a gun is strictly forbidden by law in my jurisdiction. I assume only cops carry a gun lol


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Old 02-25-2013, 20:48   #6
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I always inform the Cop. With my luck, I would get a Cop who is really pissed off that day because someone pulled a gun on him.

So, all have been polite and just order me to keep my hands on the steering wheel. No big deal.
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:51   #7
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Yes, in Texas, you are required to let the police officer who stops you know that you have a CCL and present that with your driver's license when asked for indentification.

I have been known, when I want to take a mental vacation from work to lock up all my gear and pretend that I am a "real person" and not just a number. So, I assume the role of a "civilian" a lot of times when I am off, and it means I have to play by the same rules.

But, I believe in professional courtesy, so even when I am carrying my duty weapon with the requisite gear and credentials, I let whoever decided to stop me know that I am armed for their safety and mine.

It really only is common sense. If you have ever performed a traffic stop, you would understand what is going through their mind and feel empathetic.

I remember a long time ago when I was running a checkpoint, the dog hit on a guy's vehicle. He ended up being legitimate. On secondary inspection, he told me there was a firearm in the vehicle.

I told him just not to go near the vehicle until the inspection was done, and it wasn't a big deal. He seemed nervous about it. I reassured him that unless there was a crime comitted it wouldn't be an issue.

He went on his way.

LEO's aren't anti-gun, they just like a head's up when one is in play.

When it was all said and done we shook hands and found out we were both NRA members.

I appreciated him letting me know. I make sure anyone conducting a traffic stop on me also has the same courtesy.

I have had some interesting experiences being pulled over.

I was in an unmarked prisoner van, and had just arrested someone at a probation and parole office. We were unmarked.

My partner, since deceased, said, "What the heck is this guy doing?"

A State Trooper took interest in our vehicle and lit us up.

I told him, "Well, let's pull over and see what he wants."

We pull over, and sure enough, he wanted us.

I told my partner to cant the wheels, opne the window and to put his hands on the steering wheel.

I was sitting shotgun, so I put my hands up on the dash.

The look on his face was priceless when he came up on the driver's side door.

He just ran into two people who knew how to assume the position.

Once he figured out who we were, and what we were doing, you could see him noticibly relax.

He chuckled, patted the driver's door and was on his way.

A little courtesy on a stop goes a long way. LEO's want to know whether you are armed, why, and where the firearm is. They like to go home to their families after the shift is over.

So, if you get stopped. Don't get silly, don't blow a gasket. If you are calm and respectful, it goes a long way.
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:04   #8
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Here is example of a perfect traffic stop from my civilian's point of view...
Officer: I clocked you at XX mph in a YY mph zone. May I see your license and registration please.
Me (handing him my license, registration and carry permit): Here you are sir. Just to let you know, I have a concealed weapon permit and I'm carrying right now.
Officer: Where is your gun?
Me: In my back pocket.
Officer: Well, just let it stay there (hands me the speeding ticket).
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:09   #9
The-Fly
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I definitely agree with informing the officer, and keeping my hands in plain view at all times. The one time I've been pulled over while armed, I did the above, and was treated in a very respectful manner.

My concern is that after the incident in Ohio a few years back (for those who don't know what I am talking about, google "Daniel Harless police" ) that a lot more ccw'ers in states like mine (that you're NOT required to inform), will end up not saying anything, and bad situations result.
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:25   #10
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My Carry Permit us in the pocket with the drivers license and both get handed to the officer at the same time. Sometimes they just hand the permit back while they run the license; sometimes they ask where the gun is. No real issues... Since the permit and the license have the same number he will know soon enough I have the permit so being up front about it makes sense.


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Old 02-25-2013, 21:26   #11
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If your guy can justify/articulate why he put a gun to someone he detained for a traffic violation just because he is armed, then there is no problem. If I was shot at or shot in the past, I may be like that myself, but since I haven't, I would just tell the driver I noticed he was armed. I would then tell him not to put his hands anywhere near it while I'm doing business with him.

P.S. I was shot at before, but not on a traffic stop. But again, if I'm happy with my level of safety on the stop, I wouldn't escalate the situation with a gun to someone's face with just the information you posted.
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:26   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fly View Post
My first question is this: Given the same situation, what would you do?
There is always something remarkable about the people I stop, that's why they were stopped in the first place. We unfortunately deal with many unknowns, and a reactionary time 1 to 1.5 seconds behind. I will also add, that many serious dirtbags have caught on that being polite provides some advantages. The boyfriend of one of my agency's retired Deputies, the same one that strangled her to death, and is on death row is a very respectful inmate.

So that being said, taking a tactical advantage to seize control of a situation from someone you have no idea whether they are Mother Theresa, or a Timothy McVeigh is the only realistic way of staying alive, and fulfill your oath of office. The rest can be sorted out later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fly View Post
My second question related to this. Given the same situation, but lets say the driver informs you promptly during the stop that he's armed and has a permit. He keeps his hands on the steering wheel at all times. Under what circumstances do you feel it would be appropriate to pull the driver out of the car, and handcuff him?
Just because they say they have a permit...
1. Does NOT mean they do.
2. Does not mean they aren't up to no good.
3. Don't have warrants.

4. Are nothing more than a someone stopped for a traffic violation.

The short answer is, it depends. If you are real lucky, you might have a minute to figure it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Fly View Post
My concern is that after the incident in Ohio a few years back (for those who don't know what I am talking about, google "Daniel Harless police" ) that a lot more ccw'ers in states like mine (that you're NOT required to inform), will end up not saying anything, and bad situations result.
It is completely irrational to base a belief on one person's actions when there are certainly more than 10,000 Officers in Ohio, and many of them conducting traffic stops every day. BTW, Ohio requires people carrying to inform.
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:27   #13
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Do i think you should have to inform an officer (legally) about your legally possessed weapons? No!

Will I do it every time? Yep.

I think it's just as important to roll your window down. Turn your dome light on, and keep your hands on the wheel, IFF he has his hat on.

If not? It's on cuz...
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Old 02-25-2013, 23:32   #14
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If a firearm makes a surprise appearance on a stop, I will deal with that however I have to. Then I (if need be) will listen to what the person has to say.
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Old 02-25-2013, 23:52   #15
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A week ago I had to call 911 for my 16 month old daughter. While waiting for the ambulance I ran over to unlock the door. I also took off my ccw in holster. I set it on a book shelf. (Only place to put it with out leavong room, i was alone) as I thought at any minute I would be doing CPR .


Once the ambulance arrived they sent me to get a car seat and prepare to get in ambulance. I come back in the room and there is a sheriff standing next to my gun.

He looks at me. Looks at the gun and says aaaaaaaaa... and kinda points.

I said I'm sorry . I carry. I have a permit . He could see it if he wanted And I would put it away of he let me. He said yes put it away and he let me pick it up. He followed me to my bed room and watched me put it on top of my safe.

He never asked for my permit .


I thought this was nice on his part. Dumb on mine for leaving it out. But I really had no choice.

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Old 02-25-2013, 23:57   #16
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What does that have to do with the op? I don't know .


But I do feel that the ccw holder owes the Leo the respect of disclosing his permit and weapon

molan labe
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Old 02-26-2013, 00:12   #17
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In MO it is legal for anyone over 21 to carry or have a concealed firearm while in a vehicle even without a CCW permit. Most officers assume everyone they pull over has a firearm in the vehicle and is usually the first thing they ask.
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Old 02-26-2013, 00:57   #18
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I dealt with this a few times in MI, and it was no big deal, because there's a requirement to inform the officer. Just told them to keep their hands where I could see them and that was that. Never had anyone NOT inform me, but I could see getting a little crusty with someone if I saw it and they didn't tell me it was there.

Now that I'm in IL, it's a different story, since there's no CCW (but that will change shortly, which I really couldn't care less about). The only time I've run into an "issue" was stopping a guy for 50/35 a few weeks back.

I never would've known there was anything in the car, except that he just stops looking for his insurance and says, "it's in the center console." I said that's fine, and he responded, "well, there's 2 guns in there." I asked if they were loaded, he said no, I asked why they were there, he said the center console constitutes a case in IL, according to a recent change in the law.

I asked him to step out so I could retrieve the insurance card, he did so. I inspected the guns to ensure they were unloaded, checked with my W/C on the legality of him having them, found out he was right, checked his FOID status, wrote him his warning, and he was on his way. Even shook his hand and said thank you for teaching me something. We even laughed that in a few months, it'll be a moot point, since he might be able to carry it on his hip.

All in all, that's about the best way I feel it could go. He wasn't a jerk, and had he not had to go into that console, I never would have asked him out of the car.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:25   #19
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When CCW'ers want to act like OC'ers and debate and challenge everything just because they can and have their Constipational right to not tell us anything not required or behave like impetuous, entitled children, they will be treated as an adult treats a child, instead of how mature and responsible adults treat each other. Simple. No?

At work, I observe this simple rule: I will treat you with all the respect and professionalism in the world until you give me a reason not to. Then I will act accordingly. Now, how would you like to proceed?
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:55   #20
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Nice to read they most Cops are fine with Citizens conceal carrying guns.
They should be, since they have clean background records, and are the least likely to ever break the law.
It's those Bad Guys illegally carrying guns that Cops got to worry about.
Stop & Frisk, but the courts turn them loose soon afterwards.
Cop risked his lives for that !


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