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Old 02-24-2013, 13:48   #381
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
When I do carry a semi auto, I carry (round in the chamber) because I realize that with all my efforts to pay attention and avoid threats, the one does finally find me will likely be the one I never considered or saw comming. What I can do in the mirror doesnt necessairly translate to what I can do on the flat of my back or front with a 200 pound gorilla on me.

I have always said on GT that I am not really inclined to believe that a majority of gunfights will boil down to speed of draw determining the victoy ( but it might). I am simply not willing to handicap myself, I want my weapon to be a ready-weapon all the time that I carry it.
Gotcha. Do you carry a Glock often?
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:55   #382
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Gotcha. Do you carry a Glock often?
I typically carry a Sig or Smith J-Frame.
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Old 02-24-2013, 14:15   #383
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I typically carry a Sig or Smith J-Frame.
Roger that. If the 200 lb. bad guy is on top of ya, the J-frame is probably a good choice.
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Old 02-24-2013, 14:26   #384
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SC-
From the looks of your low crime statistics in Hartford, you'd have a hard time finding an attacker to use your G17 on. Thats a very good thing for you and fellow residents.

The state of Vermont also has a remarkably low rate for violent crimes:

"Based on this report [City Ratings.Com], the crime rate in Vermont for 2013 is expected to be lower than in 2010 when the state violent crime rate was lower than the national violent crime rate average by 71.88% and the state property crime rate was lower than the national property crime rate average by 2.33%."

You folks are doing something right up there to discourage violent crime. What's your secret? Maybe this is part of the explanation:

"Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont does allow anyone who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind."

Good for Vermont!!
It is good for us here in VT. I carry my G17 24/7/365 here in Hartford, except to the Post Office to get my daily mail.
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:30   #385
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After this long discussion, I'm thinking very seriously about having a Cominolli manual safety installed on one of my G19s. A shop in Texas (Ten Ring Precision) does these installations for $133, including the kit.

Adding the Comnolli safety does not void the Glock warranty. It does not affect the factory Glock safety mechanisms. It operates like a 1911 thumb safety with a distinct tactile sensation when it is snicked off. Having it put on by a gunsmith that is very familiar with the installation is worth the extra cost.

That's my thinking today. 1911 guys will understand why this enhancement to the Glock design makes sense. Maybe my next involvement in a C1 vs.C3 thread will have new insights to share.

SPECIAL FEATURES:
Fits all model Glock pistols.
Ergonomically designed and located.
Positive engagement and disengagement.
The safety has no effect on factory function, trigger pull or internal working of your Glock.
With manual safety engaged, all Glock passive safeties are locked in place.
Pistol can be loaded and unloaded with manual safety engaged, thus diminishing the chance of an unintentional discharge.
Long wearing, properly heat treated, stainless steel parts.
Durable flat black tactical finish.
The manufacturers warranty is not voided.
Lifetime warranty on parts and labor to the original customer when installed by Ten-Ring Precision, Inc.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-24-2013 at 16:09..
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Old 02-24-2013, 17:53   #386
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"Glocks have all the safeties they need"

"Don't mess with PERFECTION.

"If you think you need a safety buy a gun that comes with one.

In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...



Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:46   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
"Glocks have all the safeties they need"

"Don't mess with PERFECTION.

"If you think you need a safety buy a gun that comes with one.

In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...



Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
The NYPD publishes an annual report of officer weapon discharges, including unintentional discharges. The following excerpt is from the 2011 report:

"Three of the 13 firearms discharged during purely unintentional incidents were weapons that were not the officers’ regular service or off-duty firearms—two were perpetrator’s weap- ons, and one was an ESU Glock 19 equipped with an under-the-barrel flashlight.
More notably, six of the remaining ten firearms were also manufactured by Glock (three model 19s and three model 26s). In fact, with regard to officers experiencing unintentional dis- charges while loading or unloading their own firearms, 75 percent of such incidents involved Glocks. Their overrepresentation in this category has been seen consistently over the past five years: since 2007, there have been 31 incidents in which officers unintentionally discharged their own firearms during loading/unloading, and 22 of those incidents—71 percent—have involved Glocks."

Yep, them Glock pistols is the safest!!

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-24-2013 at 21:00..
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:58   #388
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
The NYPD publishes an annual report of officer weapon discharges, including unintentional discharges. The following excerpt is from the 2011 report:

"Three of the 13 firearms discharged during purely unintentional incidents were weapons that were not the officers’ regular service or off-duty firearms—two were perpetrator’s weap- ons, and one was an ESU Glock 19 equipped with an under-the-barrel flashlight.
More notably, six of the remaining ten firearms were also manufactured by Glock (three model 19s and three model 26s). In fact, with regard to officers experiencing unintentional dis- charges while loading or unloading their own firearms, 75 percent of such incidents involved Glocks. Their overrepresentation in this category has been seen consistently over the past five years: since 2007, there have been 31 incidents in which officers unintentionally discharged their own firearms during loading/unloading, and 22 of those incidents—71 percent—have involved Glocks."

Yep, them Glock pistols is the safest!!
Did the report specify why the unintentional discharges occurred?
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:10   #389
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Did the report specify why the unintentional discharges occurred?
Mostly loading and unloading.
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:11   #390
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Mostly loading and unloading.
So did the discharges occur because a finger was on the trigger, or did the firearm malfunction and fire simply by racking or something like that?
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:21   #391
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So did the discharges occur because a finger was on the trigger, or did the firearm malfunction and fire simply by racking or something like that?
Finger on the trigger in all cases.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-24-2013 at 21:53..
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Old 02-24-2013, 22:03   #392
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Finger on the trigger in all cases.
That's what I expected. Sounds like they were being careless, perhaps clueless.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 02-24-2013, 22:21   #393
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That's what I expected. Sounds like they were being careless, perhaps clueless.
I think its interesting that the NYPD Glocks are equipped with 12 pound triggers to help prevent NDs:

"Additionally, all NYPD weapons are also modified to have a heavier-than-stock 12-lb trigger pull; this dimin- ishes the likelihood of unintentional discharges but also affects aiming. Nevertheless, it bal- ances the fact that NYPD pistols do not have safeties, and are carried “hot,” with a round in the chamber."

These guys are trained, I'm sure, so "clueless" doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-24-2013 at 22:23..
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Old 02-24-2013, 23:12   #394
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I think its interesting that the NYPD Glocks are equipped with 12 pound triggers to help prevent NDs:

"Additionally, all NYPD weapons are also modified to have a heavier-than-stock 12-lb trigger pull; this dimin- ishes the likelihood of unintentional discharges but also affects aiming. Nevertheless, it bal- ances the fact that NYPD pistols do not have safeties, and are carried “hot,” with a round in the chamber."

These guys are trained, I'm sure, so "clueless" doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation.
Now that's quite an eyeopener. They are definitely not clueless. Even so, they managed to get those 12 pound triggered guns to fire unexpectedly and dangerously. That's extraordinary. I suppose there's also the possibility they consider the 12 pound trigger so heavy that an ND or AD is extremely unlikely, and thus there are times when carelessness produces a serious problem. Trusting safeties to always work isn't good, obviously.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:50   #395
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There is no way of knowing exactly what happened in all those unintentional discharges. I expect some were dry firing and some may have been playing fast draw. Cops are no more immune from childish or irresponsible behavior with firearms than the rest of the population. And some have been known to lie to cover their azzes too.

Considering the number of NYPD guy there are that isn't a terrible number, all things considered.

Regards,
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Last edited by happyguy; 02-25-2013 at 04:52..
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:54   #396
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Back on topic.

I have never heard anything bad about the Comminolli safety except from some of the fanboys who've never used one.

Regards,
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:05   #397
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There is no way of knowing exactly what happened in all those unintentional discharges. I expect some were dry firing and some may have been playing fast draw. Cops are no more immune from childish or irresponsible behavior with firearms than the rest of the population. And some have been known to lie to cover their azzes too.

Considering the number of NYPD guy there are that isn't a terrible number, all things considered.)
Here are a few additional excerpts from the NYPD report:

CATEGORY of 2011 NYPD FIREARM DISCHARGES

ADVERSARIAL CONFLICT INCIDENTS=36

UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE INCIDENTS=15

Reported NDs amounted to 42% of intentional discharge incidents in adverserial conflicts with bad guys. Nearly all NDs were with Glocks.

It's also interesting that the report states with clarity that "...NYPD pistols do not have safeties...".

ADVERSARIAL CONFLICT DISCHARGE:
"A firearms discharge in which an officer intentionally discharges a firearm in defense of self or another during an adversarial conflict with a subject."

UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGES: AN OVERVIEW
"In 2011, there were 15 reported incidents of unintentional firearms discharge, involving 15 officers. (There were 21 such incidents in 2010.)
There were six officers injured in the 15 incidents. Two sustained through-and-through in- juries to their thighs, one shot herself in the buttocks, two were struck by rounds or spall in their hands, and one was struck in his ankle. No officers were killed as a result of these inci- dents."

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-25-2013 at 09:08..
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:08   #398
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In the chamber when carrying. Not in chamber when next to my bed.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:07   #399
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Just saw this thread as a new one, and started reading.

Came across this interesting post:




Now, about the Israeli draw. I practiced it, a lot. And can do it pretty well, I think.

When I showed the draw to an Army Ranger friend of mine, a sniper, he watched me do it several times dry firing the gun, and said that in the time it took me to get off the first round that he would have 3 bullets already fired.

A few minutes ago, I ran this dry fire drill, where you draw at the beep: www.predatortactical.com/uploads/media/Flashfiles/drawbeepSlider082504.swf

and was able to perform the Israeli draw and fire from an OWB holster on my hip at 4 o'clock, without a cover garment. The best I could achieve was draw from holster, rack the slide and fire on target in 1.2 seconds. I did this consistently. When drawing in the same manner but without racking the slide, I consistently drew and fired in .8 sec. BIG difference. That .4 seconds difference would easily be at least two more rounds out the pipe.

Question is, how well can someone perform the Israeli draw under stress? Pretty well, I'm sure. 1.2 seconds is alright, maybe it's poor, maybe not. But it's almost half a second slower, for me. YMMV. That, IMHO, is too big a difference, at least for me. If I had no choice but to do it the Israeli way, that's a different story.
For me, it isn't just that 1/2 second, because lets face it, we often have that much variance in how we carry (location wise). Let's say the difference between OWB with a jacket, vs. IWB with a shirt, then if you happen to be tucked, even slower.

So, no doubt there is a time factor, and under stress, if you flub the rack, then it might be even longer (assuming you don't use something like a Kahr that isn't reliable with a slingshot rack).

For me, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the bigger issue is making the assumption that everything will be perfect in that critical moment when you need to defend your life that you will be able to use both hands. I'm not talking about the arm hanging limp at your side because you were shot in it (one of the reasons they teach one handed chamberings), but instead the more realistic scenarios such as trying to fend off an attacker with your weak hand, while drawing your weapon, or a struggle where you are on the ground with the attacker on top of you, or countless other scenarios where it is impossible to use both hands to rack a weapon, and where attempting to rack the weapon on your belt or boot would be impossible or very, very difficult.

That said, it is like everything in life, something that has to be decided by balancing the pros and cons and likelihoods. Many on here that are proponents of C3 justify it in large part based on the fact that chances are they will never have to use a gun to defend themselves. This is true. Granted, that's the same argument that many in the anti-gun community use to argue why nobody needs to carry period.

Personally, I'm hoping and praying that I am one of those people that NEVER have to draw their weapon to defend themselves and that the only time I ever fire my weapon is at the range. That said, there are a LOT of cases where people need to use a weapon to defend themselves and if the time comes that I have to do so, it doesn't matter if the odds are 1 in a million or 1 in 5 trillion that a person will have to use a weapon to defend themselves, because the bad guy won't be saying, "hey, since the odds were against you ever having to defend yourself, I realize you probably aren't ready, why don't you take 10 seconds to compose yourself and then I will attack you."

Fact is that you either take the "hope/pray for the best and be prepared for the worst" or you just bury your head in the sand and pretend that you will never be that 1 in a million.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:16   #400
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I think its interesting that the NYPD Glocks are equipped with 12 pound triggers to help prevent NDs:

"Additionally, all NYPD weapons are also modified to have a heavier-than-stock 12-lb trigger pull; this dimin- ishes the likelihood of unintentional discharges but also affects aiming. Nevertheless, it bal- ances the fact that NYPD pistols do not have safeties, and are carried “hot,” with a round in the chamber."

These guys are trained, I'm sure, so "clueless" doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation.
The other thing that is interesting, and I point I was trying to make to those that say they routinely switch between C1 and C3, is that the most likely time for an AD is loading/unloading. If you routinely (some made it sound like daily or multiple times a day), go from C1 to C3, then you are GREATLY increasing the chances of an ND.

IMHO, the most important thing is to choose a method and stick with it. If you think C3 is adequate, then let it be adequate whether in Wal-mart or driving through a dangerous neighborhood.

Then, leave your weapon loaded in that config all the time, except when at the range firing it, and at home cleaning it. When at home cleaning it, load/unload in a safe direction (or even create a sand or other bullet trap to point towards).

If you want to dry fire on a regular basis, buy a second, "range" gun, that is empty except when you are practicing at the range. Use that gun to dry fire at home (obviously, checking immediately before dry firing and after any pause or interruption) and leave you carry weapon loaded and holstered.
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