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Old 02-24-2013, 19:33   #1
mr00jimbo
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Is the tactical shotgun obsolete?

I know lots of guys will wade through the muck with their Benelli or Wingmaster shotguns and bring ducks home for dinner.

But I'm talking about the shorter ones, the 18-inch-ish configuration ones with the purpose of using it for police work, "SHTF" or whatever, essentially using it for the purposes one would use a carbine.

While watching an episode of Rescue 911 (Bonus points if you remember when that show was on the air!) on YouTube, an officer was being shot by an offender at a distance that apparently was out of shotgun range, so after being injured he had to somehow reach for his M14 patrol rifle and fire back.

People have valid criticisms of the shotgun, including:
"It's too heavy!"
"It's too slow to reload"
"It holds too few rounds"
"Its limited in effective distance which puts me at a disadvantage"

All of those are good points. I mean, after all, an AR which holds 30 rounds (or 5 to 10 depending on how horrible your local laws are ) is lighter, quicker handling, and recoils significantly less. It can be reloaded quicker, is more accurate, especialy out to distance, and can be used in versatile conditions.

It seems to be the nail in the coffin of what would be a tactical shotgun. I mean, wouldn't cops or civilians alike want 30 rounds on tap compared to 6 or 7? Faster follow-up shots versus having to pump? Eliminating the jams associated with short stroking the action? Something easier on both the shoulder and the pocketbook (assuming we're talking buckshot and slug prices).

Surely somebody will stick up for the tactical shotgun? I voted with my money, with a top of the line 870 Police Magnum. Though 7.62x39 semi-automatic rifles that hang in the safe have many of the same positive attributes.

Despite the demerits against the shotgun, I can't help but grab it and a pocket full of buckshot and slugs when I head out into the woods.

But I see less and less people who want a shotgun and make a b-line for some kind of a carbine in its place, or keep the 12 gauge for birds or maybe a slug barrel for deer in wooded areas.

Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:36   #2
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Ok for certain applications, but mostly obsolete.
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:38   #3
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Not obsolete, though far from optimal for all-around use.

Inside 20 yards against only a few opponents, the shotgun can wreak havoc in a trained user's hands. In an area where you may rapidly change ranges from 1 yard to 200 and face multiple moving opponents, the rifle reigns supreme as we've known since the 1800s.
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:39   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
Your thoughts? Is the tactical shotgun role obsolete? Does it have many redeeming qualities over the AR15 platform?
No, not even close to your first question


........you can find 12g ammo on the shelf now, how about 5.56??
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:39   #5
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Military still uses the scatter gun for close combat situations so I guess it depend on the scenario. For HD why not, still the best choice AFAIC
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Old 02-24-2013, 19:42   #6
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Obsolete? **** no! My tactical shotgun will be the extension of my boot when I
jam it up zombies arse.
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:16   #7
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No, I don't think it's obsolete at all.

-ballistic breaching
-less lethal munitions
-home defense
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:29   #8
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Obsolete? No. Limited uses? Yeah.
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:31   #9
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Seriously? Ok...


There is no one gun that is perfect for everything. A 12g shotgun - in it's envelope of effectiveness - is THE number ONE manstopper period.

Say what you want; Take an AR and a 12g and shoot 100 BG's with each. The 12g will STOP significantly more, and more permanently. The AR fanboys will tell you how an AR can do anything from killing a squirrel for food at 1000 yards to stopping a vehicle at 30ft. Whatever. .223 moving at high velocity is as likely to pass clean through a target (particularly up close) as it to tumble, ricochet blah blah blah...

As for 30 rounds - how often are you going to miss??? And what is the cost of a miss in the home or in the neighborhood?

A rifle is not an ideal weapon indoors period IMO. Not saying it can't work, or won't work. But small cal high vel .223 rounds are not my first choice for target within 30ft, that might shoot back.

A Shotgun has an AWFUL lot going for it indoors. And in SHTF, the flexibility of the ammo for hunting small to large game from 0 to 100 yards, on land or on the windy, is unbeatable.

As mentioned - the AR has it's benefits like moving from a down the hall to a down the street shot.

Last edited by Aceman; 02-24-2013 at 20:32..
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:34   #10
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for me, its the best HD option. so, not obsolete. A HD scenario needing more than 7 rounds is unlikely. dont need the worry of overpenetration, I'm not lugging it around all day, and not looking to combat reload.
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:35   #11
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Carbines are for the weak men and strong girls. And the 300m+ battle space is way over emphasized by the Mattel fans. The zombies aren't real.

Even ol' coots on the interwebs can do minute 'o baddy at 230 yards using a bead sight and off the shelf slugs.

Besides, who wants to watch the bad guy just drop when you can use him as a human spray paint can? Why would you want something that is liable to break or adjustably collapse if you only want to smash some perp face with the stock?





/sarc
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Old 02-24-2013, 20:36   #12
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Shotguns are devastating short range weapons. In an urban environment I'd be very happy with a 12 gauge.
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:02   #13
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They have their uses, but that list grows shorter and shorter, especially if you are dealing with possible body armor.

I enjoy the debate though.
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:18   #14
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Shotguns are only good for killing headcrabs jumping at you
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:19   #15
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Shotguns are fun, as are revolvers, and they are still useful inside some rooms for home defense within pistol range, but I'd almost always prefer to grab just about any carbine: 7.62x39 AK, or .357 magnum lever action, or even 9mm carbine.

These all have increased effective range over a shotgun, not to mention greater pinpoint accuracy where every projectile has a lawyer attached, and you can choose ammo with various amounts of penetration if that is an issue.
Local cops & swat teams choose 9mm carbines, making that politically correct here in liberalville.
I prefer 7.62x39 for just about everything else within self-defense range, but then I'm a bad guy anyway.


That said, there's always been a loaded shotgun near the bed among other things.

Too bad indoor ranges seem to restrict shotguns so much, I can't shoot them as often as I would like, although the NRA range allows shooting slugs out to 50 yards indoors.

I have the most fun with my SxS rabbit-eared Cimarron/TTN coachgun shooting cowboy action matches, competing against Winchester/Norinco model 97 pump guns. Quick reloading and quick shooting is stressed in this sport.

A cheap shotgun makes a better home defense weapon than a cheap rifle, and it's pretty easy to learn.
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:29   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427 View Post
Shotguns are devastating short range weapons. In an urban environment I'd be very happy with a 12 gauge.


This ^^^ Yes...

Not obsolete
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:30   #17
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I have too many of the type in question to call them obsolete but I will be the first to say, that, outside of the role at which they are the most effective tool, they quickly become a compromise of diminishing effectiveness especially as distances increase.

I can dump slugs from my favorite Mossberg into reasonable target @100 yds or better, but it's a heck of a lot easier with my SOCOM 16,and as distances increase even more so.
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Old 02-24-2013, 21:42   #18
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With a good hard slug, a 12 gauge can cleanly kill any animal that walks the earth.

Will most people ever need that sort of sheer power? Of course not, but then again most people will never need the range and capacity of an AR.

A shotgun can't do everything a .223 can, and vice-versa.
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Old 02-24-2013, 22:38   #19
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Don't forget about a real combat shotgun like the Saiga 12

Watch up to the two or three minute mark at least. Some good shooting right at the end too.. you can get twenty round drums, or magwells that allow very quick magazine changes.

Choose the right shotgun for your needs. The Saiga 12 is an amazing shotgun.
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Old 02-24-2013, 22:57   #20
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A pump is still a good choice for defending boarders. The rifle can do a lot, but a shotgun still has a place as a defensive firearm. Training and practice can have you firing and reloading a pump shotgun very quickly. Another nice thing about a 12ga is the wide variety of rounds, including rifled inserts for pistol calibers.
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Old 02-24-2013, 22:58   #21
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Sometimes, I need a carpenters hammer. It does nearly all things well.

But sometimes, I need the BFH. The three pounder. I occasionally need to hit something hard enough that the outcome cannot be questioned.
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Old 02-24-2013, 23:04   #22
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The shotguns advantage is versatility. Swap the 18.5" barrel slug / buckshot barrel for a 28 mod. Choke one and shoot birds. If the goal is home defense they work well if you have only one firearm.

Personally I prefer a handgun for inside use due to maneuverability and difficulty getting disarmed. Outside I would chose a carbine, greater accuracy.
The shotgun can do a good job at both with few limitations

Last edited by Happypuppy; 02-25-2013 at 00:44..
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Old 02-24-2013, 23:40   #23
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A shotgun is most absolutely NOT obsolete. It doesn't need to be a Mossberg 590A1, either. A side by side Coach gun works just fine.

I've seen a lot of shotgun use overseas. The military still believes in the shotgun. I do too. I keep several at home.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:44   #24
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Not obsolete. In my house I use my pistol to cover until I get to my shotgun. If the fight is not over by then, it will be soon! Outside and around cover i choose my pistol and .308 rifle.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:00   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
Seriously? Ok...


There is no one gun that is perfect for everything. A 12g shotgun - in it's envelope of effectiveness - is THE number ONE manstopper period.

Say what you want; Take an AR and a 12g and shoot 100 BG's with each. The 12g will STOP significantly more, and more permanently. The AR fanboys will tell you how an AR can do anything from killing a squirrel for food at 1000 yards to stopping a vehicle at 30ft. Whatever. .223 moving at high velocity is as likely to pass clean through a target (particularly up close) as it to tumble, ricochet blah blah blah...

As for 30 rounds - how often are you going to miss??? And what is the cost of a miss in the home or in the neighborhood?

A rifle is not an ideal weapon indoors period IMO. Not saying it can't work, or won't work. But small cal high vel .223 rounds are not my first choice for target within 30ft, that might shoot back.

A Shotgun has an AWFUL lot going for it indoors. And in SHTF, the flexibility of the ammo for hunting small to large game from 0 to 100 yards, on land or on the windy, is unbeatable.

As mentioned - the AR has it's benefits like moving from a down the hall to a down the street shot.
and I love my AR, and would use it for HD, but I keep my 18.5" 6+1 870 12ga, loaded with 00Buck, with a 6rd side saddle on it, next to the bed for anything that goes "bump" in the night.
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