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Old 02-22-2013, 10:09   #361
vandros
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorPoor View Post
I've been following this thread with great interest. The discussion is, for the most part, intelligent.

...

Anyway, I've strayed from the topic, thanks for keeping this thread intelligent, far too many of them degrade into something less.
I think thanks to informal "moderation" of this thread by PhotoFeller (through explicit encouragement to be civil and personal example of what thoughtful discourse looks like) this thread has remained highly rational and useful (despite attempts by many to turn it into flaming screaming dumb-down sarcasm contest that the internet has plenty of).
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Old 02-22-2013, 18:30   #362
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Before relating this story, I would like to reiterate that my take on carrying with a round in the chamber is a personal decision for people to take. I happen to carry in C1 with all of the handguns in my carry stable and that is my decision. Some folks believe otherwise and they have every right to do as they see fit. And a few have written that they carry in less than full battery in places where they believe there is no chance of an attack while they go C1 in other places where they believe there is a greater chance of an attack. Once again, their choice.

Last night a man left a church event saying he was going to go home, walk his dog, and hop into bed. His neighborhood is upper middle class (homes in the $400,000+ range). As he was walking his dog, he was robbed and shot. He died soon after. An off duty LEO happened to hear the gunfire, saw a man running away, and gave chase. The perp was caught and had some of the victim's property on his person plus a stolen handgun. He was arrested and charged.

Now some people on this thread may think that in one's own quiet neighborhood and walking one's dog is about as benign as it can get so why carry a firearm, much less one in full battery. We don't know what this man thought, don't even know if he was a carrier. But he paid with his life for doing something he does every night in what he must have believed was total safety.

This goes to prove the one constant in this entire thread, and in life in general. You never know when something is going to happen.... something bad. And in the worse case scenario, it could cost your life. So I would suggest to you folks to plan accordingly and give serious consideration to your actions and beliefs. God only gave you one life. Please do your best to protect it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 19:14   #363
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Originally Posted by Glockdude1 View Post

Why would anyone legally carrying a pistol, NOT want a round in the chamber, ready to fire?

There are plenty of reasons. This thread is full of them if you read through it.

Edit: On second thought, I see that this was a rhetorical question.

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Old 02-22-2013, 19:35   #364
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Last night a man left a church event saying he was going to home, walk his dog, and hop into bed. His neighborhood is upper middle class (homes in the $400,000+ range). As he was walking his dog, he was robbed and shot. He died soon after. An off duty LEO happened to hear the gunfire, saw a man running away, and gave chase. The perp was caught and had some of the victim's property on his person plus a stolen handgun. He was arrested and charged.

Now some people on this thread may think that in one's own quiet neighborhood, walking one's dog is about as benign as it can get so why carry a firearm, much less one in full battery. We don't know what this man thought, don't even know if he was a carrier. But he paid with his life for doing something he does every night in what he must have believed was total safety.

This goes to prove the one constant in the entire thread and in life in general. You never know when something is going to happen.... something bad. And in the worse case scenario, it could cost your life. So I would suggest to you folks to plan accordingly and give serious consideration to your actions and beliefs. God only gave you one life. Please do your best to protect it.
Since we don't know the particulars of the crime let's say if the victim had been carrying C1 but was unexpectedly surprised he would have still been at a disadvantage whether he'd decided to attempt to draw on not.
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Old 02-22-2013, 19:40   #365
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post

This goes to prove the one constant in the entire thread and in life in general. You never know when something is going to happen.... something bad. And in the worse case scenario, it could cost your life. So I would suggest to you folks to plan accordingly and give serious consideration to your actions and beliefs. God only gave you one life. Please do your best to protect it.
True.

If I had a dog, I would walk it in my neighborhood at night without much concern. I might have a G19 in my pocket even though no one has been attacked in the 10 years my community has existed. It could happen, though.

I do own bicycles, and I ride them around town with great pleasure.
I firmly believe that I'm exposed to greater risk on a bike than I am walking in my neighborhood.

How can I mitigate the risk of being struck by a car or a cement truck when I'm out for a ride? Well, I could stay home, or I could ride in circles in a school parking lot. Instead, since I want to ride freely, I accept the favorable odds against being struck by a vehicle; in other words, I accept the low probability of being hit if I do my part by riding safely (danger avoidance and situational awareness on a bike). Still, I could get clobbered.

We make probability based decisions consciously and subconsciously in everything we do, every day. We put our kids on a school bus (without seat belts!) believing they will be safe, and they probably will. We show up at our place of employment believing we will be safe; odds are we will be. We take the family on a driving vacation assuming we'll be safe, and there is a good chance we will. However, each of these relatively safe activities could result in a deadly outcome (a "worse case scenario").

For me, carrying C1 represents a higher risk of ND than the risk of being attacked in a manner that would prevent me from responding effectively from C3. It's that simple. It's about weighing the risks of my options. If I lived in a dangerous neighborhood where the risk of surprise attack is high, I might be compelled to carry C1...and put my bike in storage.

God did give us just one life. He also gave us the intellectual capacity to maneuver through each complex day by making a lot of decisions based on probabilities. We do our best to protect this precious life by staying within the bounds of acceptable risks. I get 'er done with C3.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-24-2013 at 13:23..
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:44   #366
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Since we don't know the particulars of the crime let's say if the victim had been carrying C1 but was unexpectedly surprised he would have still been at a disadvantage whether he'd decided to attempt to draw on not.
Could be true. Of course, we'll never know. A strong situational awareness and the means with which to protect oneself is the best medicine you can have when going out and about.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:12   #367
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Just saw this thread as a new one, and started reading.

Came across this interesting post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.

Now, about the Israeli draw. I practiced it, a lot. And can do it pretty well, I think.

When I showed the draw to an Army Ranger friend of mine, a sniper, he watched me do it several times dry firing the gun, and said that in the time it took me to get off the first round that he would have 3 bullets already fired.

A few minutes ago, I ran this dry fire drill, where you draw at the beep: www.predatortactical.com/uploads/media/Flashfiles/drawbeepSlider082504.swf

and was able to perform the Israeli draw and fire from an OWB holster on my hip at 4 o'clock, without a cover garment. The best I could achieve was draw from holster, rack the slide and fire on target in 1.2 seconds. I did this consistently. When drawing in the same manner but without racking the slide, I consistently drew and fired in .8 sec. BIG difference. That .4 seconds difference would easily be at least two more rounds out the pipe.

Question is, how well can someone perform the Israeli draw under stress? Pretty well, I'm sure. 1.2 seconds is alright, maybe it's poor, maybe not. But it's almost half a second slower, for me. YMMV. That, IMHO, is too big a difference, at least for me. If I had no choice but to do it the Israeli way, that's a different story.
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Old 02-23-2013, 13:57   #368
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I carry without one in the chamber. Sorry i have no long epic diatribe about why. I just never feel threatened enough. Now that I think about it sometimes I do. When I have to go to that part of town to pick my nephew up for work. also I saw a U tube video with Ermey saying he never did either. But they always say, when you least suspect it...
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:25   #369
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Everybody is probably worn out from our "epic diatribe" posts, so good for you.

Your statement explains your point of view just fine.

Welcome to GT.
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Old 02-23-2013, 14:55   #370
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I wish every thread on this site was a civil discussion like this.
I am stuck to my opinion of carring c1 but it has been a good read to get other people's point of view
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Old 02-23-2013, 15:35   #371
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I'd refer you to this article, where the author explains the issue much better than I did.

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html



Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth_squeeze View Post
Just saw this thread as a new one, and started reading.

Came across this interesting post:




Now, about the Israeli draw. I practiced it, a lot. And can do it pretty well, I think.

When I showed the draw to an Army Ranger friend of mine, a sniper, he watched me do it several times dry firing the gun, and said that in the time it took me to get off the first round that he would have 3 bullets already fired.

A few minutes ago, I ran this dry fire drill, where you draw at the beep: www.predatortactical.com/uploads/media/Flashfiles/drawbeepSlider082504.swf

and was able to perform the Israeli draw and fire from an OWB holster on my hip at 4 o'clock, without a cover garment. The best I could achieve was draw from holster, rack the slide and fire on target in 1.2 seconds. I did this consistently. When drawing in the same manner but without racking the slide, I consistently drew and fired in .8 sec. BIG difference. That .4 seconds difference would easily be at least two more rounds out the pipe.

Question is, how well can someone perform the Israeli draw under stress? Pretty well, I'm sure. 1.2 seconds is alright, maybe it's poor, maybe not. But it's almost half a second slower, for me. YMMV. That, IMHO, is too big a difference, at least for me. If I had no choice but to do it the Israeli way, that's a different story.
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Old 02-23-2013, 19:31   #372
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Well said, PW. I disagree with most of your analysis, but thats simply my view versus yours.

From your vantage point, as I understand it, we live in a dark, dangerous place where only armed citizens keep the criminals in check. ...
I wouldn't say it was my vantage point as far as it being intrinsic to my personal cognition as I first discussed these matters with the criminals themselves and then gleaned the worldview from their perspective(s), but not from the worldview I hold/held.
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...I judge society based on what I experience day-in and day-out, and its far different from your description. You choose to emphasize the underbelly, and I generally see a positive, peaceful, God fearing society.

Time will tell who has the clearer view.
Please, without googling or finding a dictionary, please define the term society as you use it?

In time I think you will perceive the aseptically errant usage of the term as bantered about by so many, which is especially true when it comes to politicians.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 02-23-2013 at 19:34..
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Old 02-23-2013, 20:21   #373
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
I wouldn't say it was my vantage point as far as it being intrinsic to my personal cognition as I first discussed these matters with the criminals themselves and then gleaned the worldview from their perspective(s), but not from the worldview I hold/held.

Please, without googling or finding a dictionary, please define the term society as you use it?

In time I think you will perceive the aseptically errant usage of the term as bantered about by so many, which is especially true when it comes to politicians.
First, I don't quarrel with your opinion about the perils of living wherever you live or wherever the criminals you interviewed came from..."a world where darkness abounds". Your "world view" is based on your collective experience, including input from criminals, while my perspective reflects mine. My life, past and present, is different from millions of people who live in less fortunate conditions, and I know that.

Define 'society' without looking it up, you say? I'll give you my definition, right or wrong, as follows:

Society means an environment/population in which acceptable social behavior (interactions between members of the society) is established and judged by the folkways, mores, customs, traditions, rules, regulations and laws established by and for it's inhabitants.

I think "God fearing society" is proper usage of 'society'.

Now that I've had a shot at tonight's assignment, please give me the correct definition or provide a good reference so I can look it up. My sociology professors (1965 and 1966: S101, S102, The family, The Community, Criminal Behavior) would be quite disappointed, I'm sure.

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Old 02-23-2013, 23:45   #374
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The only bad thing that I have taken from this thread is that my vocabulary sucks lol.
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Old 02-23-2013, 23:56   #375
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I'd refer you to this article, where the author explains the issue much better than I did.

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html

Thanks, Vandros. Very interesting article.

One of the things I got from the article by deduction is how excellent the Glock pistols are. And the quote by Mas Ayoob about not carrying a Glock inside the waistband without a holster makes total sense. In that circumstance, where the trigger would be exposed with the pistol simply shoved inside the waistband, there is definitely a danger of a ND. Ditto for plenty of much older autos. However, the author also wrote: "From my position, I tend to suggest chamber loaded carry as the normal and standard default position, just as I tend to suggest a DAO autoloader as the standard default weapon for those who choose to carry an autoloader."

Very, very interesting blogpost. Thanks again.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:43   #376
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Originally Posted by Black Eagle View Post
I carry without one in the chamber. Sorry i have no long epic diatribe about why. I just never feel threatened enough. Now that I think about it sometimes I do. When I have to go to that part of town to pick my nephew up for work. also I saw a U tube video with Ermey saying he never did either. But they always say, when you least suspect it...
Ah come on...this thread is all about long epic diatribes!

Regards,
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:31   #377
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When Jedi like situational awareness fails and a armed citizen suddenly finds themselves in a life or death physical struggle on the pavement, I bet they wish they didnt have to rack the slide.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:58   #378
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When Jedi like situational awareness fails and a armed citizen suddenly finds themselves in a life or death physical struggle on the pavement, I bet they wish they didnt have to rack the slide.
Yep, it is intuitively obvious that under such circumstances, having to chamber a round is a huge, perhaps deadly, disadvantage. Is that the reason you decided to carry your Glock in C1?
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:43   #379
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Yep, it is intuitively obvious that under such circumstances, having to chamber a round is a huge, perhaps deadly, disadvantage. Is that the reason you decided to carry your Glock in C1?
When I do carry a semi auto, I carry (round in the chamber) because I realize that with all my efforts to pay attention and avoid threats, the one does finally find me will likely be the one I never considered or saw comming. What I can do in the mirror doesnt necessairly translate to what I can do on the flat of my back or front with a 200 pound gorilla on me.

I have always said on GT that I am not really inclined to believe that a majority of gunfights will boil down to speed of draw determining the victoy ( but it might). I am simply not willing to handicap myself by offering even a half second advantage to my attacker. I want my weapon to be a ready-weapon all the time that I carry it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:47   #380
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When everysecond counts,Yes one in the chamber. Always!
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