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Old 02-22-2013, 21:35   #1
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Long Range Precision Shooting

I want to endeavor to learn it. Is there a good online source for beginners short of spending hours on the snipers forums?

Yeah, I know you can't learn it reading but I'm trying to get educated a bit here in terms of definitions, technique and so forth.

Where do I start short of going out and just shooting?

BTW, I'm talking about learning to be proficient between say 300-500yds. Long term, slow moving skill acquisition.

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Old 02-22-2013, 21:45   #2
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Ok, so I see that GT has a GATE subforum run by Zak Smith with a good bit of introductory info. Didn't realize.
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Old 02-22-2013, 21:57   #3
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Go to a highpower rifle match. If you need help PM me. Not a better way to do it and you will be surrounded by people who know their stuff.

Its 10% equipment and 90% experience.

You cannot buy skill at long range riflery. You can only acquire it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:37   #4
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Great suggestion High Power is a gas. 600 yard AR15 iron sights and have a 12 step program ready to call on.

Its really rewarding and the participants really enjoy helping the beginners.

Check out the NRA rules and reg it covers it all.
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:44   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Go to a highpower rifle match. If you need help PM me. Not a better way to do it and you will be surrounded by people who know their stuff.

Its 10% equipment and 90% experience.

You cannot buy skill at long range riflery. You can only acquire it.
I will.

The GATE subforum has some nice articles for beginners by the mod. I like what he recommends for a beginner rifle (Rem700/.308, Leupold Mark 4, harris bipod, a little trigger work). Reasonable expense to get started in something new.

Lemme read up a bit BB and I will refer back to this thread and hit you up.
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:45   #6
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Great suggestion High Power is a gas. 600 yard AR15 iron sights and have a 12 step program ready to call on.

Its really rewarding and the participants really enjoy helping the beginners.

Check out the NRA rules and reg it covers it all.
will do
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:58   #7
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The local complex here has a 1000 meter range and the distance guys shoot there. They're an odd bunch but absolutely fascinating to watch. The best I ever did was hit the paper with a "...hey, come here and try this" gun and got on the edge of the paper at 500. HH
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Old 02-22-2013, 22:59   #8
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A good way to start, is by learning ballistics, and ballistic coefficient. In other words, how does temperature, altitude, humidity, wind speed and wind direction affects bullet flight of a bullet with ballisic coefficient (X), with (X) speed 12in.from the muzzle. But the first step, is by reloading yourself. Otherwise everything mentioned above goes out the window. The secret, to accuracy, is CONSISTENCY, in all tree factors: equipment, medium and human factor.
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Old 02-22-2013, 23:11   #9
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A good way to start, is by learning ballistics, and ballistic coefficient. In other words, how does temperature, altitude, humidity, wind speed and wind direction affects bullet flight of a bullet with ballisic coefficient (X), with (X) speed 12in.from the muzzle. But the first step, is by reloading yourself. Otherwise everything mentioned above goes out the window. The secret, to accuracy, is CONSISTENCY, in all tree factors: equipment, medium and human factor.
That's where I'm looking to start at this moment. Learning the language and the concepts until I can explain them. Then, buy a decent beginner setup, do some shooting and put them in practice. Learn to use the charts.

I'll tell ya I've been thinking about this a while. A few nights ago I bought one of those ballistic computers for my iphone and started to play with it and realized I don't have the slightest freaking idea. So I'm backing up.

Naturally I want to buy a new gun and gear but I want to have some idea how to use it when I go to the range.
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Old 02-22-2013, 23:15   #10
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The local complex here has a 1000 meter range and the distance guys shoot there. They're an odd bunch but absolutely fascinating to watch. The best I ever did was hit the paper with a "...hey, come here and try this" gun and got on the edge of the paper at 500. HH
My range has 300 and is always "just about to start" on a 600yd range. Don't know of anything beyond that around here. In my mind if I can learn and get competent at 300 with a beginner .308 setup that would be a good start and we can go from there.

I found it very interesting that Zak highly recommends shooting with a suppressor. That'll be phase 3 or 4 if I can stumble my way to any skill whatsoever.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:47   #11
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Talk to the people over at benchrest.com. They can answer any question you might have.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:15   #12
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Depending on your experience you might check out the Appleseed website. The have shoots on weekend and although mostly use .22 it can give you an idea of proper techniques
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:39   #13
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Originally Posted by fgutie35 View Post
A good way to start, is by learning ballistics, and ballistic coefficient. In other words, how does temperature, altitude, humidity, wind speed and wind direction affects bullet flight of a bullet with ballisic coefficient (X), with (X) speed 12in.from the muzzle. But the first step, is by reloading yourself. Otherwise everything mentioned above goes out the window. The secret, to accuracy, is CONSISTENCY, in all tree factors: equipment, medium and human factor.
This is a horrible way to learn to shoot long distance.


I've never met a bozo who could quote ballistics and velocities and coefficients to me who could shoot worth a crap. People who argue over crap like that can't tell you what a 7-8 MPH breeze looks like in the mirage of a scope.
Nor can they tell me the come-ups or correction you need to apply. Because, while you might be able to compute it on paper-- there's no substitute for putting rounds on paper and KNOWING how your gun and load reacts to the wind.

Practical accuracy is not achieved with ballistics tables. I can take a mediocre round like a .308 in an average rifle and put it in the hands of a master class shot and shoot circles around the hottest most modern long range load in the zootiest rifle with an less than accomplished shot. Ballistics charts can tell me what a load SHOULD do in the wind on paper but I've never shot a rifle yet at 600-1000 yards that did exactly what it was supposed to do from the ballistics charts. There's enough variation in loads and guns that it makes the theory less than useful.

Not beating up on you. Just saying. You want to learn long range precision rifle you need to burn out a few barrels and get some experience watching bullets blow around in the wind. Studying tables and crap is a huge waste of time.

F-class rifle matches are also not a bad way to start but honestly it doesn't teach you as much about shooting a rifle as highpower will. When you learn how to HOLD and shoot an accurate rifle from positions and hit stuff way out there you will know something!
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:59   #14
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Quote:
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This is a horrible way to learn to shoot long distance.


I've never met a bozo who could quote ballistics and velocities and coefficients to me who could shoot worth a crap. People who argue over crap like that can't tell you what a 7-8 MPH breeze looks like in the mirage of a scope.
Nor can they tell me the come-ups or correction you need to apply. Because, while you might be able to compute it on paper-- there's no substitute for putting rounds on paper and KNOWING how your gun and load reacts to the wind.

Practical accuracy is not achieved with ballistics tables. I can take a mediocre round like a .308 in an average rifle and put it in the hands of a master class shot and shoot circles around the hottest most modern long range load in the zootiest rifle with an less than accomplished shot. Ballistics charts can tell me what a load SHOULD do in the wind on paper but I've never shot a rifle yet at 600-1000 yards that did exactly what it was supposed to do from the ballistics charts. There's enough variation in loads and guns that it makes the theory less than useful.

Not beating up on you. Just saying. You want to learn long range precision rifle you need to burn out a few barrels and get some experience watching bullets blow around in the wind. Studying tables and crap is a huge waste of time.

F-class rifle matches are also not a bad way to start but honestly it doesn't teach you as much about shooting a rifle as highpower will. When you learn how to HOLD and shoot an accurate rifle from positions and hit stuff way out there you will know something!
BB - I'm not talking about memorizing tables. The entire thing is new to me. Turns out the articles posted here in GATE by Zak are just what I was looking for.

And THANK YOU ALL for not launching into jokes about using "long range" and "300-500yds" in the same paragraph. I get what is meant by the supersonic limits of a bullet now and that those ranges are not "long". To me anything out past 200 is "long" right now.

I am a bit disappointed though when searching practical long range shooting in Louisiana as I am coming up empty handed. Some high power rifle matches not to far away though. Longest range I can find is 600 and I can be a member for only $150/yr.

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Old 02-23-2013, 09:06   #15
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BB is calling it well. I shot high power National Match course (200, 300, 600 yd.) and 1000 yd. with an M14 rifle with peep and post, military competition. Only experience can get you up to speed regarding lighting, wind, temp, mirage and such. The only thing I'd add to what's been said is to keep a log book of every round you fire recording lighting, temp, wind speed/direction, etc. and the corrections you made for conditions. Since I was .mil, we had to use provided rifles (built by team armorer) and gov't issued match ammo. If you can't hit the paper at 600 or 1000 yds. with your sighter shots, you're s.o.l., and that's where the log book comes in handy.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:26   #16
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Cert,

The problem with trying to "learn" long range precision rifle outside any other venue than some form of competition is its logistically darn near impossible. Its takes REALLY long distance ranges and most public ranges really aren't built for this--think about the time involved just in going down 1,000 yards and checking your target?!? And there isn't a spotting scope made that's going to let you see bullet holes in paper past 300 yards on a good day--200 on an average day.

Competition is the way to go because you will be on a range with pull targets and someone will be working the pit and pulling and marking your target while you shoot so you can get feedback and make corrections without having to drive 2,000 meters between shots. You need to use pull targets to get the feedback you need to understand what your bullet just did. You shoot a 10 shot group at 1,000 yards without a marked pull target you will have no idea what ANY of those shots mean....some might have been shot in a breeze and some in a dead calm....but WHICH ones? See... Its all about useful feedback. Really, only way to do that is to compete. Unless you just happen to have a few friends and access to a KD range with pits on the days when there isn't a match.

You know where you start. A gun, a 1,000 pieces of brass and a 1,000 primers and match bullets. You get a load that can put 10 shots into 2.5-3 inches at 300 yards and your load 1,000 of those bullets. Go to matches and shoot. Use that brass three more times....4,000 loadings total. Throw the brass away, buy a new barrel for your gun and do it again. You'll probably be close to shooting into expert class. By the time you shoot out your second barrel you should be a master class shot.

Don't mess with the load or gun. Learn how to shoot the load and gun you have.
Changing things like guns and loads sets you back midstream. You are trying to learn something about yourself--not the tool.

And yes, barrels burn out about 4-5k rounds for long range accuracy. I've burned out 4 myself.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:29   #17
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I'm no expert on long range shooting, and I don't claim to be one.

With that out of the way, go to a High Power Rifle Match, and you can/will learn a lot.
If you can get into a 'clinic', that's even better.



Breath control. Sight alignment. Trigger squeeze. Follow-through. Repeat as necessary.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:20   #18
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I'm no expert on long range shooting, and I don't claim to be one.

With that out of the way, go to a High Power Rifle Match, and you can/will learn a lot.
If you can get into a 'clinic', that's even better.



Breath control. Sight alignment. Trigger squeeze. Follow-through. Repeat as necessary.
I've learned (self taught) those shooting fundamentals shooting precision rimfire. I've never done anything out past 100 yds with the exception of hunting rifles at 200
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:23   #19
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Quote:
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Cert,

The problem with trying to "learn" long range precision rifle outside any other venue than some form of competition is its logistically darn near impossible. Its takes REALLY long distance ranges and most public ranges really aren't built for this--think about the time involved just in going down 1,000 yards and checking your target?!? And there isn't a spotting scope made that's going to let you see bullet holes in paper past 300 yards on a good day--200 on an average day.

Competition is the way to go because you will be on a range with pull targets and someone will be working the pit and pulling and marking your target while you shoot so you can get feedback and make corrections without having to drive 2,000 meters between shots. You need to use pull targets to get the feedback you need to understand what your bullet just did. You shoot a 10 shot group at 1,000 yards without a marked pull target you will have no idea what ANY of those shots mean....some might have been shot in a breeze and some in a dead calm....but WHICH ones? See... Its all about useful feedback. Really, only way to do that is to compete. Unless you just happen to have a few friends and access to a KD range with pits on the days when there isn't a match.

You know where you start. A gun, a 1,000 pieces of brass and a 1,000 primers and match bullets. You get a load that can put 10 shots into 2.5-3 inches at 300 yards and your load 1,000 of those bullets. Go to matches and shoot. Use that brass three more times....4,000 loadings total. Throw the brass away, buy a new barrel for your gun and do it again. You'll probably be close to shooting into expert class. By the time you shoot out your second barrel you should be a master class shot.

Don't mess with the load or gun. Learn how to shoot the load and gun you have.
Changing things like guns and loads sets you back midstream. You are trying to learn something about yourself--not the tool.

And yes, barrels burn out about 4-5k rounds for long range accuracy. I've burned out 4 myself.
I understand completely
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Old 02-23-2013, 16:26   #20
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Head over to Snipers Hide. A wealth of information. Next, find your local place that holds tactical type matches. They usually have you shooting steel targets which give you instant feedback. I actually just shot a long range match today. We shoot from 234-1000 yards at various sized steel targets. It's the most fun I've ever had when it comes to shooting.


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Old 02-23-2013, 17:09   #21
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If you are anywhere near Ohio. The Army's {AMU} will give you the basics with and iron sighted M16 out to 200 yards. They have their Small Arms Firing School every year.

I took that several years back along with an M1 Garand workshop put on by the Ohio R&P association. From their I shot quite a bit of Highpower with the M1, M14, and AR15 out to 600 yards all with a M1907 sling and iron sights.

You can take what you learn there and apply it to scoped guns at any distances you want. If you can hit a bullseye at 600 with irons you can go farther with proper come ups and ammo.
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Old 02-23-2013, 20:21   #22
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You know where you start. A gun, a 1,000 pieces of brass and a 1,000 primers and match bullets. You get a load that can put 10 shots into 2.5-3 inches at 300 yards and your load 1,000 of those bullets. Go to matches and shoot. Use that brass three more times....4,000 loadings total. Throw the brass away, buy a new barrel for your gun and do it again. You'll probably be close to shooting into expert class. By the time you shoot out your second barrel you should be a master class shot.
High Power Midrange (600) or Longrange (1000) is probably the best foundation building venue there is even with the goal of F Class. If you can get to a 600yd course for $150/yr with pull targets id sure go for it.

600 off a mat, with a sling, and a glove, and a coat, 1 single round feed mag adapter, AR-15, 20X spotting scope and stand , and your log book and your good to go.

My biggest problem was holding position for 22 minutes. It tears me up and when its 99 degrees out your ready to die by the time you fire the 20th round. Do it 3 times with a break in between the 2 and 3rd string to pull targets (everyone pulls) and you'll feel like someone kicked your ass by the end of the day. But its a feeling you'll learn to love.

The reason BB emphasized doing your shooting on a pull target range is that the puller will mark your bullet hole with a 4" disk that you can see clearly with a 20X spotting scope and scope of a higher mag only tend to screw things up when the heat waves are rolling. Like he said forget ever seeing a bullet hole. The disc tells you what you just did and mark it on a plot in your log book. there is a scoring disk that tells you what ring your in by where its positioned on the target (the HP rule book will explain all that but you gotta know)

Id venture to say at a HP match 90% of the guns will be ARs ideally one with a White Oak Upper ($700) with double piined sights 5 years ago. Id be afraid to see what the wait time and price is now.

If they're shooting 600 nearby you gotta check it out. Peep sights are as easy to shoot (if not easier than a scope). The only thing your looking at is the front sight and a faint view of the target black. Its very interesting how your works for you.

Doping the wind is something you must learn and it means lots and lots of time shooting many many rounds. Pick one load and stay with it, just like BB said he's is so right on what it takes to get good. Good record keeping is so valuable.

F-Class is for shooters who are old and cant see anymore like me but I love HP thats funny because I bet you see more old farts shooting High Power and the young bucks shooting F class, maybe.
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Old 02-24-2013, 14:40   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
This is a horrible way to learn to shoot long distance.


I've never met a bozo who could quote ballistics and velocities and coefficients to me who could shoot worth a crap. People who argue over crap like that can't tell you what a 7-8 MPH breeze looks like in the mirage of a scope.
Nor can they tell me the come-ups or correction you need to apply. Because, while you might be able to compute it on paper-- there's no substitute for putting rounds on paper and KNOWING how your gun and load reacts to the wind.

Practical accuracy is not achieved with ballistics tables. I can take a mediocre round like a .308 in an average rifle and put it in the hands of a master class shot and shoot circles around the hottest most modern long range load in the zootiest rifle with an less than accomplished shot. Ballistics charts can tell me what a load SHOULD do in the wind on paper but I've never shot a rifle yet at 600-1000 yards that did exactly what it was supposed to do from the ballistics charts. There's enough variation in loads and guns that it makes the theory less than useful.

Not beating up on you. Just saying. You want to learn long range precision rifle you need to burn out a few barrels and get some experience watching bullets blow around in the wind. Studying tables and crap is a huge waste of time.

F-class rifle matches are also not a bad way to start but honestly it doesn't teach you as much about shooting a rifle as highpower will. When you learn how to HOLD and shoot an accurate rifle from positions and hit stuff way out there you will know something!
With all due respect Sir. The OP stated he was interested in "precision accuracy" and not " practical accuracy" as you mentioned in your post. And by the way, approaching the matter in a pshyics way is the opposite of mediocre. Shooting brass like crazy until you develop some type of muscle memory, according to your approach, Is a waste of time and money. Yes you can refine your skill with experience, but you don't have to buy Cabelas supply of ammo to accoplish. I would like to see you putting five shots into a quarter at 600yds with cross winds in different directions down the range and see if your "feel" for the rifle is going to help you. im not saying is impossible, but physics will make it a lot more doable than just "gut feeling".
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:53   #24
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I didn't understand what I was asking for until I learned a bit more. Long range practical shooting is what I'm after. I suppose mid range practical would be on the bearish horizon.

I think BBs point was that I'm not going to learn it reading. Still, there is quite a bit to be learned reading before I get set up and start shooting.
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Old 02-24-2013, 16:10   #25
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
That's where I'm looking to start at this moment. Learning the language and the concepts until I can explain them. Then, buy a decent beginner setup, do some shooting and put them in practice. Learn to use the charts.

I'll tell ya I've been thinking about this a while. A few nights ago I bought one of those ballistic computers for my iphone and started to play with it and realized I don't have the slightest freaking idea. So I'm backing up.

Naturally I want to buy a new gun and gear but I want to have some idea how to use it when I go to the range.
I would suggest buying a used rig from somebody already in the game you want to get into....1000 bench, f class, hi power, silhouette...

I would actually say that .22 silhouette would teach you a lot more than you would ever expect. And it's not so expensive.
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