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Old 02-19-2013, 14:37   #161
countrygun
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
RussP, I do not abide by the Webster definition for civilian, I go by the international definition which is simply any person who is not a combatant. The laws of war (Geneva Conventions) do not differentiate police forces from other civilian bodies, they simply break down people into two basic categories; combatants and civilians.
When Canada invades then that definition may be of importance. Of course there is the issue of whether you believe in the international definition of "Gun Control" as well.
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Old 02-19-2013, 14:58   #162
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RussP, I do not abide by the Webster definition for civilian, I go by the international definition which is simply any person who is not a combatant. The laws of war (Geneva Conventions) do not differentiate police forces from other civilian bodies, they simply break down people into two basic categories; combatants and civilians.
Thank you for that, but the question was:
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Jay, you reject the Merriam-Webster definition of civilian. Are there any other definitions you do not accept?
I'm also interested in your response to this...
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Of course there is the issue of whether you believe in the international definition of "Gun Control" as well.
Do you agree with that?
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Old 02-19-2013, 15:25   #163
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International gun control is a farce and it has no bearing on my duties. Let the other pansies do as they will. I am a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, but I do have to abide by the rules of war.

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Old 02-19-2013, 15:36   #164
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International gun control is a farce and it has no bearing on my duties. Let the other pansies do as they will. I am a strong 2nd Amendment supporter, but I do have to abide by the rules of war.

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So your definitions and your decisions about internal matters in this Country are based upon the international rules of war and those rules, and definitions supersede anything else?

Really?
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Old 02-19-2013, 15:47   #165
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So your definitions and your decisions about internal matters in this Country are based upon the international rules of war and those rules, and definitions supersede anything else?

Really?
No, what I am saying is that law enforcement agents in the US are civilians in the military's eyes and those are the eyes I have looked through for over half of my life. The dictionary can say one thing, but in the world I come from, that definition doesn't mean squat to us. There are troops, then there are everyone else. It is not meant to be rude or condescending, it's just the way it is when it comes to war and to those who make it.
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Old 02-19-2013, 15:50   #166
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Last I heard the Supreme court ruled that it's not a Police Officers Duty to protect an individual while putting his own life at risk.

Am I wrong in this regard?

An LEO is not bound by terms of contract to serve a 2-4 year term, or be charged with desertion if he or she doesn't fulfill there contract obligation Like the average person serving in the Armed forces. They can always just quit and find employment in another field, or agency elsewhere without consequences. That, in my opinion makes them a civilian.
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Old 02-19-2013, 15:51   #167
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Last I heard the Supreme court ruled that it's not a Police Officers Duty to protect an individual while putting his own life at risk.

Am I wrong in this regard?

An LEO is not bound by terms of contract to serve a 2-4 year term, or be charged with desertion if he or she doesn't fulfill there contract obligation Like the average person serving in the Armed forces. They can always just quit and find employment in another field or agency elsewhere, without consequences. That, in my opinion makes them a civilian.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:02   #168
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No, what I am saying is that law enforcement agents in the US are civilians in the military's eyes and those are the eyes I have looked through for over half of my life. The dictionary can say one thing, but in the world I come from, that definition doesn't mean squat to us. There are troops, then there are everyone else. It is not meant to be rude or condescending, it's just the way it is when it comes to war and to those who make it.
Thank you for clarifying the basis for your belief. From your limited perspective, where all except you are civilians without further categorization, your application of the category "civilian" is correct.

Many of us outside the military look at the colloquial application of "civilian". We do use the definition found in the dictionary.

Please remember the thing about context in using the word, especially the shortened version.

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Old 02-19-2013, 16:04   #169
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Originally Posted by GunHo198 View Post
Last I heard the Supreme court ruled that it's not a Police Officers Duty to protect an individual while putting his own life at risk.

Am I wrong in this regard?

An LEO is not bound by terms of contract to serve a 2-4 year term, or be charged with desertion if he or she doesn't fulfill there contract obligation Like the average person serving in the Armed forces. They can always just quit and find employment in another field, or agency elsewhere without consequences. That, in my opinion makes them a civilian.
So who is responsible for the us vs them mentality?
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:12   #170
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So who is responsible for the us vs them mentality?
That would be us......



......or them.







Depending on how you look at it....
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:15   #171
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Originally Posted by GunHo198 View Post
Last I heard the Supreme court ruled that it's not a Police Officers Duty to protect an individual while putting his own life at risk.

Am I wrong in this regard?
Not that cut and dry...
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An LEO is not bound by terms of contract to serve a 2-4 year term, or be charged with desertion if he or she doesn't fulfill there contract obligation Like the average person serving in the Armed forces. They can always just quit and find employment in another field, or agency elsewhere without consequences. That, in my opinion makes them a civilian.
Again, from the narrow perspective of members of the military versus everyone else, yes, everyone else is a civilian.

However, for those outside the military, you are one narrow band in the spectrum of citizens. You are military. Others are sworn LEOs. Others not in the military and not sworn LE are grouped together as civilians. That large group is broken down into sub-categories, such as doctors, nurses and other licensed members of the medical profession. I have heard them refer to those not in medicine as civilians on occasions.

The use of the word "civilian" is appropriate in a number of situations, inappropriate in others.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:17   #172
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So who is responsible for the us vs them mentality?
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
That would be us......

......or them.

Depending on how you look at it....
Yep...
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:34   #173
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So who is responsible for the us vs them mentality?
That would really depend on who's side you stand with. It should be "WE", as in "We the People." But when LEO chiefs Stand behind a Tyrant on National TV, and don't support the Constitution of the United States. Then it becomes "Us vs Them."

I agree that not all LEO are like that. I know plenty here in Florida that support the Constitution. But when BAD LEO's say on this Forum, (of which I repeatably read) that if they Ban guns, they are going to come and take them, and we aren't going to do anything about it. Because who is going to raise our kids when we are gone!?.. It sure puts "Us vs Them" into perspective.

Sadly, putting people on edge will only get good people hurt in the long run.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:39   #174
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Soo you are saying they do not need the same weapons as the criminal to preform their jobs...fascinating....
And your saying we dont need the same weapons to defend ourselves from those same criminals granted less often fascinating
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:40   #175
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Originally Posted by GunHo198 View Post
That would really depend on who's side you stand with. It should be "WE", as in "We the People." But when LEO chiefs Stand behind a Tyrant on National TV, and don't support the Constitution of the United States. Then it becomes "Us vs Them."

I agree that not all LEO are like that. I know plenty here in Florida that support the Constitution. But when BAD LEO's say on this Forum, (of which I repeatably read) that if they Ban guns, they are going to come and take them, and we aren't going to do anything about it. Because who is going to raise our kids when we are gone!?.. It sure puts "Us vs Them" into perspective.

Sadly, putting people on edge will only get good people hurt in the long run.
Please, site your source. This I GOTTA hear. Names and quotations of ANY verified Law Enforcement Officer posting those words on this board.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:44   #176
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Why attack the cops on the street instead of the legislators, who are the real enemies? The firearms companies are trying to use cops as pawns, even the scumbag legislators aren't doing that..
Police unions in the states that inact these types of laws tend to support progressive legislators so by getting leo to get on thier unions ....
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:49   #177
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Police unions in the states that inact these types of laws tend to support progressive legislators so by getting leo to get on thier unions ....
JUST police unions, or any union? By your logic, a member of the UAW (who were VERY supportive of our current legislature) should be punished because the leadership of that union is openly supportive of those persons who have enacted these silly laws?
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:51   #178
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But when BAD LEO's say on this Forum, (of which I repeatably read) that if they Ban guns, they are going to come and take them,
You've repeatedly read that? I would like links to those posts, please.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:55   #179
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You're from TX. How many NY LEO's do you actually know? All you see on TV is the political talking heads (Commissioners/Chiefs) who only parrot what their handlers say. I AM a cop in NY. I know quite a few cops in NY. None of us, that I have spoken to personally, agree with this edict from King Andy. The problem lies in that we're not allowed to make statements to the press like the appointees are.
Vote of no confidense?
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Old 02-19-2013, 17:01   #180
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
RussP, I do not abide by the Webster definition for civilian, I go by the international definition which is simply any person who is not a combatant. The laws of war (Geneva Conventions) do not differentiate police forces from other civilian bodies, they simply break down people into two basic categories; combatants and civilians.
So, basically, you just pick the definition you like... Got it.


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