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Old 02-19-2013, 10:11   #141
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Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
I like to rely on the wisdom of someone who has walked both paths:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-too-edition/
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:15   #142
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What about the victims and their ability to defend themselves? I would say there are THOUSANDS more of them, than their are of us who have been injured and/or killed.

When seconds count, you and I are only minutes away.
Like I said earlier, the point of my posts has nothing to do with taking away the ability of average law-abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves.

I fully recognize and support people's right to arm themselves for the protection of themselves and others.

It was asked how cops are different from your average law-abiding citizen. I was pointing out some of those differences. We take the calls to go into harms way. We respond to scenes while others run away. We face the monsters others don't want to. It's our job and our duty to do so. It's expected of us.

This does not take away anyone's right to protect themselves. But, it's the difference between cops and your average law-abiding citizen.

I know we can't be everywhere all the time. But we're the ones who get called when things go south, and we're the ones who have to clean up the mess.


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Old 02-19-2013, 10:15   #143
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Fro starters, the FOP and the District of Columbia would agree with me and disagree with you. The FOP calls itself a "trade union". But what do they know, right?
They can call it what they want ... I was a Lodge president unless you bring them in as a bargining agent it is a fraternal lodge.. that is why they are two distinct entities..
The majority of FOP members pay no money into bargining unit dues, it goes into the fraternal orginization.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:16   #144
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Threads like this make the liberal gun grabbers proud...........
I think that you're reading into what you're actually reading. Go back and read some of my previous posts.

This time with an open mind.


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Old 02-19-2013, 10:18   #145
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
I like to rely on the wisdom of someone who has walked both paths:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-too-edition/
Both definitions are correct depending on the audience.

BTW I have never called anyone a Civilian....I prefer Fine citizen..or mope...
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:22   #146
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"I prefer Fine citizen..or mope..."
LOL
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:32   #147
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Reading through some of this stuff, there seems to be some confusion - intentional or not - about what's going on with these companies.

First, it seems (and I could be reading it wrong) that some folks think the companies are refusing to sell to cops AT ALL, anywhere. That's not true, it's specifically about places where some of the idiotic laws are coming through, like NY.

Second, I don't believe there's any direct "attack" on sales to police. Rather what they're saying is they're going to apply the same restrictions regarding sales to police and agencies that the general public can get.


Now, I'm not saying I agree with this - frankly, I've of the mind that the police should be able to acquire and carry whatever they feel they need to do their job safely and effectively. But it IS decision of these companies to determine how they want to run their business.

And as someone else said, it's not a statement against the police in those areas. It's a statement against those passing these laws. The idea is that the police will be put in the same position by the retailers as the average non-LEO residents* have been put in by the legislators. Again, agree or not, I think there is a valid argument to be made.



*That's a little more unwieldy than civilian or citizen, but I think it gets the point across, right?
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:07   #148
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I guess it just matters which side of the badge your on. Being a resident of NY and not a LEO I have an issue with LE getting special dispensation in regards to which laws apply to them. Previously Leo's were exempt from the 10rd mag ban and could have standard cap mags even off duty. Please don't think I'm trying to bash the Cops one of my best friends is a city cop. However if I get caught with more than seven rounds in a magazine who's going to be the person enforcing the laws passed by those playing political games with our freedom? I applaud the manufacturers that are standing up to Coumo and his commie thugs in Albany.
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You realize they are allowed to disregard traffic laws also while they are working and activate emergency lights, should car manufacturers boycott as well since you can't drive like that when you want to.
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I guess you missed the part where they were exempt even while off duty. Cops have a crap job dealing with scumbags on a regular basis I get that. I also get its a really dangerous job. But that's what they signed up for. My cousin is a corrections officer. One of my best friends did undercover stuff. They should have the best equipment available. And then we have the local dept where the former chief just got paroled last December and his son an officer in another local dept is in jail for giving out info on a witness who then got his ass beat. Yeah I know there are good cops and bad cops good citizens and bad citizens but comments like you made make it real hard for us lowly ordinary folks to have much sympathy.
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Do you not think that cops have to deal with the same idiots they arrest on duty while off duty? Do you not think they are at quite a bit more risk for retailiation from these guys? What about states/agencies that REQUIRE officers (by law or policy) to take action, even when "off duty", when certain actions occur in their presence?
RJ 71, I'm surprised you left the discussion, well, no, I'm not surprised. You got your snipes in with the ever present "family and friends" qualifier, as well as the old "its a really dangerous job. But that's what they signed up for."

Now, I'm down here in firearm friendly Virginia. We pretty much can have whatever LE carries. There are people who want that changed. They think prohibiting lawful carry will prevent violence involving firearms. We've been able to stay ahead of them through the efforts of groups like VCDL and individual citizens.

Oh yeah, my son is a Deputy Sheriff and I have a few friends in LE, too.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:09   #149
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You realize that public safety unions cannot strike, right?
Thank you for responding. When I read that, my brain literally started hurting. I believe it was as punishment for entertaining such an uninformed line of crap.

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Originally Posted by Southswede View Post
He is spot on in my state. Lights and siren request right of way. I am still responsible for any violation of the law, resulting in an accident. I can't call what he wrote drivel
So your state doesn't have a "failure to yield to emergency vehicle" statute? Sucks to be you, I guess. If I "request" the right of way, and can cite you if you fail to give it to me, how is that not a demand, exactly?

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I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
Saadly, no matter how much you debate with logic and cite your source, some people are going to stick their fingers in their ears and scream loud as they try to baffle you with bull****.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I have only this to say: I find it disgusting that these companies would withhold lifesaving goods or services from ANYONE as a political statement.

I agree with the message they're trying to send, but not the way they are sending it. Just like I won't agree when Glock, S&W, et al. refuse to make seven round mags for guns designed to take high capactiy magazines. I realize why they're doing it, but I disagree with it on a personal level.

Hence, even after this crap has been straightened out, I won't willingly purchase from these companies again. I did it with Colt when they threatened to stop selling to "civilians" some years ago, and I see this as no different (and yes, those are sarcastic quotation marks, just to clarify). I realize these companies don't give a rat's rosy red rectum about me and my piddly little money, but this is the option I have available to me, and just as they are exercising their right to refuse to sell to cops in states where these moronic laws have been passed, I am exercising my right to purchase from someone else who won't deny my brethren lifesaving tools in the name of a political statement.

In short: screw those companies.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:13   #150
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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Both definitions are correct depending on the audience.

BTW I have never called anyone a Civilian....I prefer Fine citizen..or mope...
As long s it isn't "Puke" or "Scrote" I can live with that
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:18   #151
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You use the term civi like it is a pejorative.
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Not at all, it's just the slang that we use. Civi police, civi clothes, civi laws etc. It is how we differentiate between military and civilian. Nearly everything is implied to be related to the military when on post, so to distinguish from that which is not, we add "civi" to whatever term we are using. It's an old habit and not meant to be disrespectful.
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Idiocy? Sorry pal, cops are civilians, regardless of how many sets of camouflage uniforms you may own.
The part in red, the , does create a context where "civilian/civi is indeed pejorative.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:26   #152
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The part in red, the , does create a context where "civilian/civi is indeed pejorative.
I was taking a swipe at someone who insulted me, nothing more.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:58   #153
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So what is the argument over now? I can't keep up.

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Old 02-19-2013, 13:04   #154
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As long s it isn't "Puke" or "Scrote" I can live with that
Everyone gets my best behavior .. till they show me that they do not respond to civil discussion...

Then they are mopes....Pukes and Scrotes come later
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:28   #155
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What makes a cop any different then a civilian??? Not trying to start anything just asking a simple question.
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Originally Posted by CJStudent View Post
The expectation to go into harms way every day, and sometimes have it follow you home. Where a civilian may have to deal with some of these idiots from time to time, cops are the ones expected to deal with them all of the time, mostly in a confrontational manner due to the situation.
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Because when **** is going bad, you don't call ordinary civilians to come as fast as they can to clean it up, you call the cops. Any business that would make an intentional effort to make it more difficult for these officers to equip themselves appropriately just to make a political statement is particularly deplorable, and those cheering them on are essentially happy about the idea of our cops getting ****ed.

I get that many CCWers have made a commitment to act in the face of peril, but police officers have a legal duty to act in the face of peril. They openly put a target on their chest and stand in the fold, the least we can do is ensure they have access to the tools necessary to do so.
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Read the above, we are not different but our jobs are.
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Have you ever chased an armed bank robber, who took a hostage, and then had to be put down while he was trying to carjack another victim?

Have you ever responded to a shooting in progress, then chase an armed suspect through the streets so he doesn't kill someone else, then got into a running gunfight?

Have you ever responded to an active shooter on a school/college campus?

Have ever buried one of your buddies, who was murdered while trying to stop a scumbag from killing people in a local Walmart?

Have you ever visisted a friend in the hospital, after he had his throat cut by a guy who had raped and murdered 3 girls?

Aside from these kind of things, I guess there's not much difference....
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And there it is. THERE'S the difference between you and a cop. You got all butthurt and decided you're not gonna come to help out someone else. A cop doesn't do that. No matter how much you goad us into a pointless debate, insult us to our face and behind our backs, tell us you pay our salaries and spit on us, when you dial 911, we still come.

We don't have to like you, we'll still defend you. Obviously you lack the intestinal fortitude to say the same. Bravo, tough guy.
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Originally Posted by Southswede View Post
When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. The cops go to bad calls in pairs (if not more). The citizen does not have the luxury of body armor, secondary weapons, advanced communications and a host of other resources. So the citizen isn't as well off as the cop.......
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Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian

Definition of CIVILIAN

1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law

2a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

b: outsider
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Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
Just because the dictionary says police aren't civilians, it doesn't make it so. The police are US citizens working on US soil enforcing US law. They are not combatants that can be deployed to foreign nations as military members are. The police fall under the same laws as those they enforce while the military has additional laws and regulations governing them.
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Just because it's in the dictionary doesn't make it so... okay... let's make up our own definitions for stuff... you practicing to be a Democrat politician?

The view that it's military or else is a very narrow view of the word civilian which has nothing to do with the word other than the popular application.

The laws you live under doesn't matter when you think about it. Military members who are active but who are walking or driving around the city are still subject to civilian laws too.

Extending that even further, foreigners who are here are subject to American law, doesn't make them Americans. (although a lot of Democrats who need voters would think so)
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lawman800, law enforcement are civilians. When you can get deployed to some third world crap hole as a combatant who is subject to the Geneva Conventions, then I would believe otherwise. Until then, you are a civi who enforces civi law on US soil. There is a fundamental difference between the mission of law enforcement and the mission of the military. One is to keep the peace and serve the criminal justice system of the US, the other is to meet on the field of battle, engage with and kill the enemies of the nation. It is an honorable and admirable position to be in law enforcement, but it is still a civi position.
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Idiocy? Sorry pal, cops are civilians, regardless of how many sets of camouflage uniforms you may own.
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Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
I think we are confusing the term citizen and civillians. We are citizens first and cops second. Cops aren't civilians (well some act like it but that is a subject for another thread).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
I like to rely on the wisdom of someone who has walked both paths:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-too-edition/
Quote:
Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
Like I said earlier, the point of my posts has nothing to do with taking away the ability of average law-abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves.

I fully recognize and support people's right to arm themselves for the protection of themselves and others.

It was asked how cops are different from your average law-abiding citizen. I was pointing out some of those differences. We take the calls to go into harms way. We respond to scenes while others run away. We face the monsters others don't want to. It's our job and our duty to do so. It's expected of us.

This does not take away anyone's right to protect themselves. But, it's the difference between cops and your average law-abiding citizen.

I know we can't be everywhere all the time. But we're the ones who get called when things go south, and we're the ones who have to clean up the mess.
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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Both definitions are correct depending on the audience.

BTW I have never called anyone a Civilian....I prefer Fine citizen..or mope...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
"I prefer Fine citizen..or mope..."
LOL
Some people find it entertaining, this back and forth about whether LE officers/deputies/agents are civilians or not.

Jay, you reject the Merriam-Webster definition of civilian. Are there any other definitions you do not accept?

Let me ask this. Why are the municipal bodies charged with the investigation of complaints by members of the public concerning misconduct by police called "Civilian Review Boards"? Is it to differentiate them from the police?

And, yes, there is within the military branches civilian police forces.

And, yes, there are within LE agencies civilian employees, called such to differentiate them from sworn LE employees.

If you want to call sworn LE personnel "civi" or civilian, justifying it has an old military habit, have at it. Do understand that as is quoted above, it may or may not be contextually correct. In the wrong context, it will be considered pejorative.

It is like the word "cop". It has very different meanings to different people. Some can be defined. There is one usage for which there is no written definition, but when used, others understand.

Lets agree then that those in law enforcement are citizens first.

The descriptor "civilian" may be used referencing members of LE, but the appropriateness is based on the totality of the context.
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:34   #156
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You use the term civi like it is a pejorative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1975 View Post
Not at all, it's just the slang that we use. Civi police, civi clothes, civi laws etc. It is how we differentiate between military and civilian. Nearly everything is implied to be related to the military when on post, so to distinguish from that which is not, we add "civi" to whatever term we are using. It's an old habit and not meant to be disrespectful.
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Idiocy? Sorry pal, cops are civilians, regardless of how many sets of camouflage uniforms you may own.
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The part in red, the , does create a context where "civilian/civi is indeed pejorative.
Quote:
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I was taking a swipe at someone who insulted me, nothing more.
Thanks for confirming what I said!!
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:47   #157
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I think that you're reading into what you're actually reading. Go back and read some of my previous posts.

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My reading comprehension is fine. I am seeing a clear division between groups of gun supporters. Perhaps you should take a closer look.
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:56   #158
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My reading comprehension is fine. I am seeing a clear division between groups of gun supporters. Perhaps you should take a closer look.
yes you are because you are not being truthfull, does the CCW holder deserve to carry a gun while other citizens cannot, if you truly cared you would also demand that CCW holders not be allowed this preferntial treatment, and that they be treated like everyone else..Oh wait no thats not what you meant..

Does the CCW holder in my state deserve not to pay for a records check when buying a firearm, yet I have to pay everytime? Even though I am checked every year by my agency. Ohh the humanity and the elevated class of preferential treatment....
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Old 02-19-2013, 14:13   #159
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Anybody else getting dizzy from the back & forth in this thread ... and I've only skimmed a little of it.

Okay, civilian law enforcement is just what the term implies. Civilian, not military.

Does that mean the term civilian can't also be used to create a distinction between non-gov employment and that of various gov service (local, state, fed) involving some type of "enforcement activities"? Sure. Happens all the time.

The commonly acceptable definitions (plural) from various sources can be picked up and used to further whatever opinion any particular individual may wish to espouse ... as if it will usually help to resolve disagreement.

I chuckled when I came across this one at some point ... A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.

A "belligerent group", really? Who slipped that one into the mix?

As far as the original topic?

Folks can react to any company's actions and political philosophies however they wish.

If some smaller manufacturers and/or vendors wish to adopt making political statements into their business management models? Not my business. Not my problem, either.

Not like there's a lack of products of either the same, similar or even better quality and pricing, is there?

Might be more noteworthy if one of the major, internationally active manufacturers did something of a similar nature.

Of course, if it were a publically traded company they would have to answer to their board and shareholders, and might incurr legal complications.

A privately held company might be something else ... but it would be surprising if they adopted some course of conduct in their business model that denied them major sales & repeat business from LE/Mil customers.

Then there's the gun companies who are owned by corporations located in foreign countries.
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Old 02-19-2013, 14:24   #160
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RussP, I do not abide by the Webster definition for civilian, I go by the international definition which is simply any person who is not a combatant. The laws of war (Geneva Conventions) do not differentiate police forces from other civilian bodies, they simply break down people into two basic categories; combatants and civilians.
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