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Old 02-13-2013, 01:35   #101
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Originally Posted by Yondering View Post
Yes. Not with my thumb, but with the heel of my left hand. It's not difficult, and isn't likely to hurt you. It doesn't take much to keep it from cycling. You can do the same by wrapping your hand around the front half of the slide and frame (like in a self defense situation).

Any Cal is correct that these are recoil operated locked breech actions, not blow back, but you can do the same with a blow back action as well. (I've tried it in a 45 blowback, but not a 10mm.)

With my suppressed .22 pistol also, I sometimes hold the slide closed with my left thumb to make the shot quieter.
Interesting. It looks worse on paper, I guess. In the G29 example I've been working off of, the slide velocity is around 27.3fps, which is 14.2 ft-lbs of slide energy max as the bullet leaves the barrel. I imagined that would hurt more due to the suddenness of it, but I guess not.

Also, thanks for posting your spring data.

Any Cal, that video is great. Thanks!

RMM, no problem. You are not being argumentative at all. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. I learn new things here from other people's experience all the time. Probably everyone here could write a short book on gun lore. Some things that get repeated and passed along are true, some are partially true, and some are totally bogus. But I also believe that every observation has an explanation, we just don't always have enough info at the time to be able to explain it. I just want to better my understanding, and try to get to the truth if it's possible. Sometimes the best we can do is to offer theories of why things are the way they are, but if there's ever an opportunity to nail something down where the theoretical supports the empirical, or vice versa, then I think we're making progress.

I'm going to clean up my spreadsheet and make it available to anyone who wants to look it over. If I made mistakes on any of my calculations or assumptions, I would rather have it discovered sooner than later, so I'm not adding something untrue to the gun lore. I already know that my timing data for unlocking may be incorrect, since I used constant acceleration, but there seems to be a lot of margin built into the G29 design to prevent that from happening, even if my numbers are off a little. I have some pressure curves that I hope to fit to the acceleration of the bullet and the slide, and see how that affects the timing. I also have some info that I found on the gas jet effect, and I want to incorporate that, too. It would also be nice to model the slide speed when it hits the physical stop, and when it returns to full battery, but that's going to take some calculus, and I'm a little bit too far out of school for that right now. I may have to pull out a text book to figure that one out.

Anyway, when I get some time I'll try to get this sorted out and explain the math as best as I can. It's really not all that complicated. I've already kind of hijacked deadandgone's thread, so maybe I'll start another one. It's a hot topic that will probably cause a lot more debate.

BTW deadandgone, that "Glock tattoo" is really cool! I can see you showing it to your grand kids one day..."and this one is from when my G29 exploded in my hand while I was shooting some Swampfox..."
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Old 02-13-2013, 22:27   #102
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I've still got about 40 rounds of SwampFox 10mm 155gr SilverTips. I've fired a few out of my 29SF and 20 with no problems. I'll see if I can pull and weigh the charge, if anyone is interested.
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Old 02-13-2013, 23:15   #103
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not to change the subject but since swamp fox is fading and underwood is growing in popularity, I must ask if any would has pulled Underwood ammo and tested it for quality. After finding out SF record, I want to know Underwoods record on quality with the constancy on powder amount.
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Old 02-13-2013, 23:19   #104
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I've still got about 40 rounds of SwampFox 10mm 155gr SilverTips. I've fired a few out of my 29SF and 20 with no problems. I'll see if I can pull and weigh the charge, if anyone is interested.
Do it! More info is always good.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:31   #105
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Glock checked it out....

Spoke with Tech rep at Glock this morning. He was looking at the gun as we spoke. He said the blowout showed all the signs of an over pressure round failing. He examined the gun and said that the only permanent damage was the frame was cracked. He will replace the frame for 100 dollars and ship it back to me. He did say they would test fire it to make sure no other problems arise.


So....there it is. I should have my gun back in the next two weeks.

In my mind....this case is closed. Then again, my mind is kind of feeble....

Thanks everyone in their pursuit of answers and the truth.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:01   #106
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Originally Posted by cablecutter View Post
not to change the subject but since swamp fox is fading and underwood is growing in popularity, I must ask if any would has pulled Underwood ammo and tested it for quality. After finding out SF record, I want to know Underwoods record on quality with the constancy on powder amount.
There have been quite a few tests and examinations of Underwood's ammo .... He uses tried and true charges of 800X in his loads. I have the data somewhere, or you can search in the 10-Ring

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Old 02-14-2013, 10:38   #107
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Hey boys... As you know, I always pull this out when I see a Kaboom post.


My late G20 with "Factory Winchester Silvertips."(WW did replace the gun, and this is a real looong story, if interested do a search please.)


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OP, sorry about your gun amigo ! Glad your ok, and I know how the hand feels. I got it in the face as well.. It happens from time to time.


Hope you get everything worked out.











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Old 02-14-2013, 16:01   #108
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I think we need to give out Purple Hearts, or Purple IndexF for the Documented KBs posted on GT.


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Old 02-14-2013, 19:10   #109
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Originally Posted by cablecutter View Post
not to change the subject but since swamp fox is fading and underwood is growing in popularity, I must ask if any would has pulled Underwood ammo and tested it for quality. After finding out SF record, I want to know Underwoods record on quality with the constancy on powder amount.
I have only pulled a few of the Underwood loads, and they were consistent with what others have found...Data is posted here; http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/

Those pictures Canyon Man posted really peaked my What The Heck meter! It stirred my curiosity enough to make contact with him and discuss the incident shortly after it happened. I think him and I came to the same conclusion...

My idea is to work to keep this from happening, thru understanding and education.
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Old 02-14-2013, 20:04   #110
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Damn...Silvertips did that to Canyonman's gun?

WTH happened? Were these the older, hotter Silvertips or the newer watered down stuff?
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Old 02-14-2013, 23:56   #111
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CanyonMan, those photos give me the shivers every time you post them.

That is a pretty nice example of what can go wrong!


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Old 02-15-2013, 09:11   #112
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Damn...Silvertips did that to Canyonman's gun?

WTH happened? Were these the older, hotter Silvertips or the newer watered down stuff?

To be polite to the OP here, I'll make this the super short version...



This was about 4-5 years ago maybe.. I loose track . But I was shooting factory silvertips, in preperation for a trip we were taking. Just trying them out, "because" I hardly ever use factory ammo. I use my own reloads. Had just got through with a "hand load session." And yes the barrel was clear and all was well....

So, short plain and simple. I loaded up, fired, and about the 2nd or 3rd one went BAM!


Now, I had a used G20 barrel in the gun I had bought as a "spare" (why I don't know ) from a Glock armorer at a gun show in Dallas we drove in to.

That being said. WW forensics, could never say with any shadow of a doubt it was or was not their ammo, "because" there was NOT enough evidence to go on. "Everything was gone." Brass everything.. Only 'powder residue' and that was 'tainted' by the previous handloads I had shot etc.

I sent in photo's of the pile of ST's on my table outside, and of my rainbow colored hand, and the eye doctor bill (yes I had on glasses (reading glasses ha) and they paid for the Doc, and replaced the gun with a NIB from Glock hot off the press G20SF.

WW are VERY good people to do business with !


I got to add. Glock would not even talk to me at all about it. They said... "Gary, we know you are a hand loader..." UH, excuse me Glock, I was not shooting han loads when this happened. Even had a couple signed and sworn statements from a couple amigo's that were there with me shooting to testify to the fact they were factory loads...

Glocks reply on the phone over and over.. "Sorry Gary we know you are a hand loader, you told us that on a phone call one time and we documented that statment..."

So, Cheers to WW... Good folks !

In closing here on the "shortest version" I can give ya. We really do not completely know either, whether it was a double charge from WW, or whether the barrel "very used' I bought from the guy as a spare had been 'severly abused' with stupid loads from the previous owner (it was a very old barrel with a ton of wear) as in "on the brink of destruction", and he finally went, when I fired that shot, (for time and space sake let the reder understand here).

We do not know. WW does not know. But were kind enough to replace the Gun anyway free of charge.


There ya go for shorts!


I did want to ring the neck of that guy who sold me the barrel ! haha... Plus kick my own butt for buying it in the first place. So we don't know bottom line. GT'ers flooded me with opinions when first posted years ago. A good deal of wrong ones, and a few that made good sense, and thanks to them all.... But problem is, in the senerio I just gave above. There is NO WAY to know for CERTAIN, whether that was a severly abused barrel from a nut case hand loader and on the fringe of going south, and I was the lucky guy to get it there, or whether it was the WW ammo... I will never know.

Personally. I do have a very deep gut feeling it was the Used Barrel... MY opinion, Just a gut feeling. Again, we will never know. May have been a bit of both.



I feel for the OP, because yes, it hurt like the dickens !


I have grown up on a ranch being kicked, mashed, hit, stomped, crushed, and bit, and in my share of fist to cuffs, uh hum... But man this Kaboom (at least mine) blinded me for a short spell (as in could not see) threw shards of junk into my face, and my hand looked like a pumpkin painted different colors.. A whole new kinda pain.. haha. Shook it off and went on, (had to keep up that lousy cowboy pride in front of the fellas.. ) but it was a doozy !


So there ya go on this one... I just can't resist bringing these out when I see a Kaboom thread. Perhaps I should restrain myself in the future, BUT as my COP neice said when she saw them and me, 'Man it makes ya more aware "at least in practice times," to wear eye protection haha, (then she added) and not to shoot a Glock !" She carries a 45acp Smith (she was joking about the Glock of course). She is SVU, and a gun shooting ranch girl. So I bring out the pics, not to scare folks, but to freak them out a bit... haha.


We have NO control over what "Factory ammo" will or "can do." We sure can take ALL precautions on our hand loads though... I like to wildcat, yes. But get crazy, careless and stupid ? No !


Just don't buy used barrels, and be careful out there, and don't act like hot shot harry with the hand loads on your equipment, whatever you shoot. Finally, know that yes, even factory loads, can Kaboom ya.


Thats all folks !




Stay safe
Be blessed







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Last edited by CanyonMan; 02-15-2013 at 10:27..
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:17   #113
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CanyonMan, those photos give me the shivers every time you post them.

That is a pretty nice example of what can go wrong!








Yes sir, me too !


I guess it should give the "shivers."

I hope they (the pics) always help folks to be careful, and understand things can go wrong with any gun. Not just Glocks or Smiths or Rugers, but any gun, given just the right circumstance!

Also, "Although this was NOT caused from my my hand loads"... I always hope it will also help hand loaders stay on their toes, and not get crazy !


Thanks Tater. Hope all is well with you and family amigo !



Stay safe




Adios guys !





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Old 02-15-2013, 13:23   #114
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CanyonMan (or anyone else), do you have any opinion on whether a different, aftermarket, barrel (like KKM) would/could have prevented that?

I have two two (both lengths) for my G20SF, because I shoot stuff like the fairly-hot BB loads. I am thinking of getting one for my G27 because I shoot fairly hot loads through my various .40s. Nothing crazy, just stuff like the CorBon 150gr loadings and the like, which are on the upper end of what the mainstream ammo mfrs produce.

Or should I just stick with the stock barrel?
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Old 02-15-2013, 15:00   #115
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Canyon Man's used factory barrel may have been abused, but it is thought of as the Winchester ammo was overloaded. Although it may have been a sever setback of the bullet, that caused the pressures to spike.

Your stock barrel should be fine with reasonable loads. The aftermarket barrels are 416R stainless steel and said to be 160Lk to 180K pressure rated. However that doesn't mean that they will not come apart.

Good handloading practices will go a long way to not stress you equipment.
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Old 02-15-2013, 15:44   #116
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Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
CanyonMan (or anyone else), do you have any opinion on whether a different, aftermarket, barrel (like KKM) would/could have prevented that?

I have two two (both lengths) for my G20SF, because I shoot stuff like the fairly-hot BB loads. I am thinking of getting one for my G27 because I shoot fairly hot loads through my various .40s. Nothing crazy, just stuff like the CorBon 150gr loadings and the like, which are on the upper end of what the mainstream ammo mfrs produce.

Or should I just stick with the stock barrel?


Quote:
THE SHADOW wrote:

Canyon Man's used factory barrel may have been abused, but it is thought of as the Winchester ammo was overloaded. Although it may have been a sever setback of the bullet, that caused the pressures to spike.

Your stock barrel should be fine with reasonable loads. The aftermarket barrels are 416R stainless steel and said to be 160Lk to 180K pressure rated. However that doesn't mean that they will not come apart.

Good handloading practices will go a long way to not stress you equipment.



MarineHawk,


This is about it amigo...!

I do think it was a little of both. A very abused barrel on the brink of blowing, and had been severly weakened. This is based off gut feeling and a whole lot of looooong story other stuff I do not want to get into please.. Plus, as Shadow said, the WW ammo was more than likely double charged or had a severe set back, that last one I reall do not think so as i am pretty geared at looking at the rounds as I load. I developed that habit (for practice shootin) years ago, and also when i load a carry mag as well. So I do not think set back. But a very over abused barrel on the brink of "blowing" and or the ammo itself, bottom line.

Someone who is crazy, and abuse's a barrel with consistant nitro loads, and is warned, "Hey don't do that, etc.." He is warned "because we know he can blow that barrel and his hands and head with it...

Ok, I may have gotten 'such a barrel', and it just needed a few more rounds of any kind and BAM ! It may have been the ammo or both. We could around this for 100 years.

Point is, don't buy used junk, and be aware of everything you do at a loading bench, and know even factory stuff can go KABOOM !


Do you need and after market barrel ? Not in my opinion. I got several for G20's and G29's and have learned to hate all of them for various reasons "over my stock equipment".

"Only" reason I bought them was to "save on brass." I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of "hard cast lead" through "stock Glock barrels" and NEVER one issue of any nature at all...

I see no real accuracy over the OEM barrel to right home about with the AM barrels (for me) as of yet. I can kill deer cleanly at 100yds with the G20 and a 200gr HC bullet of my own loading, and out here on the ranch in loooong range shooting/play time, we have seen stuff I won't repeat here at long range with this G20 and other semis as well, so i won't be called a liar by someone who has the itch to do so.

I have way to many friends here that know me, but there is always that one guy somewhere that wants to rumble, haha, so I will just say, the Glocks we own and shoot are accurate as all heck STOCK.

I shoot my hand loads all the time out of stock at 1300fps, and have never had ONE single issue with anything. Just hog belly brass. haha. So I bought some AM barrels to save on brass life with some of my loads, and that is about it pard...

Stay safe, becareful, and don't worry about your stock barrel with factory loads of "very good quality and reputation," and do not get plumb crazy if you hand load !


Stay safe
Be blessed



Thanks Shadow !





Adios amigo's !









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Old 02-15-2013, 17:10   #117
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Thanks for the update, Canyonman.

It's always a pleasure.
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Old 02-15-2013, 19:30   #118
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Thanks for the update, Canyonman.

It's always a pleasure.


You are most welcome amigo !




Thank you Shadow !

Thank you OP for giving us a 'wide loop here' !


Bless y'all !




Gotta close for me on this one fellas. I have over stayed my GT limit for a short spell...



All you old boys take care and please stay safe !
PM's welcome. I check them fairly regular.














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Old 02-16-2013, 00:21   #119
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CanyonMan (or anyone else), do you have any opinion on whether a different, aftermarket, barrel (like KKM) would/could have prevented that?

I have two two (both lengths) for my G20SF, because I shoot stuff like the fairly-hot BB loads. I am thinking of getting one for my G27 because I shoot fairly hot loads through my various .40s. Nothing crazy, just stuff like the CorBon 150gr loadings and the like, which are on the upper end of what the mainstream ammo mfrs produce.

Or should I just stick with the stock barrel?
I'll chip in as the anyone else. The stock and aftermarket barrels have very similar dimensions. I ran the numbers on bursting strength with 416 stainless at various tempers a while back, and found that 37,5 KPSI is a very good limit for the barrels. If you count the fact that all manufacturing has tolerances, so strength isn't always optimal, then exceeding SAAMI specs can be getting into a very thin margin, even w/ aftermarket barrels.

The materials and heat treat in the aftermarket barrels isn't particularly special, and while amply sufficient for factory loads, just don't have the mass needed for a sufficient safety margin with over-spec loads. The outside of the barrel is a fixed dimension, the only way to get a significantly thicker wall would be to go to a smaller caliber.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:17   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
MarineHawk,

Someone who is crazy, and abuse's a barrel with consistant nitro loads, and is warned, "Hey don't do that, etc.." He is warned "because we know he can blow that barrel and his hands and head with it...
...
Point is, don't buy used junk, and be aware of everything you do at a loading bench, and know even factory stuff can go KABOOM !

...

"Only" reason I bought them was to "save on brass." I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of "hard cast lead" through "stock Glock barrels" and NEVER one issue of any nature at all...

I see no real accuracy over the OEM barrel to right home about with the AM barrels (for me) as of yet. I can kill deer cleanly at 100yds with the G20 and a 200gr HC bullet of my own loading, and out here on the ranch in loooong range shooting/play time, we have seen stuff I won't repeat here at long range with this G20 and other semis as well, so i won't be called a liar by someone who has the itch to do so.

I have way to many friends here that know me, but there is always that one guy somewhere that wants to rumble, haha, so I will just say, the Glocks we own and shoot are accurate as all heck STOCK.

I shoot my hand loads all the time out of stock at 1300fps, and have never had ONE single issue with anything. Just hog belly brass. haha. So I bought some AM barrels to save on brass life with some of my loads, and that is about it pard...

Stay safe, becareful, and don't worry about your stock barrel with factory loads of "very good quality and reputation," and do not get plumb crazy if you hand load !
...
CanyonMan
I took out my favorite parts ...

Basically, CM is right on point (as usual). Stock barrels fine AND accurate, but might work your brass a bit more. Not so much a safety issue at all; rather, more of a "brass" issue. LOL! As long as you reload safely (yes, even hot stuff... but SANE hot stuff), you should be fine with stock. In fact, I figure AM barrels can actually INCREASE pressure on loads because of the tighter tolerances... but I digress...

The only REAL work a Glock needs (to ME) is a Ghost connector and MAYBE some different sights (although stock will work here, too, if you are well versed in how iron's work.

Nick
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