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Old 02-11-2013, 20:21   #76
ChiTownPicaro
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Originally Posted by RonS View Post
Bad for everyone. I blame the shooter less than the drunk, if the drunk has stayed off the road the kids would be alive, the drunk would be alive and there would be no problem.

IMHO we need to wage war on judges who put drunks back on the road. Vote them out, hold them accountable, raise holy hell with them in the press.

I think this whole thing is a perfect example of why America is going to hell in a handbasket. The system does not work. The criminal justice industry does not provide justice, it just makes money for lawyers, judges, corrections facilities and bail bondsmen. We all know it doesn't work. How can you have a social contract with something as disfunctional as 21st century America?
Instead of waging war on the judges, why not just ban alcohol again?

Either way the fact is this man is a murderer and deserves to be punished. Temporarily insane might be his excuse and I probably could buy it, but nevertheless the man took the law into his own hands. If he can do that, what other things can people justify?
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:22   #77
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
My emotions. I'm not ashamed to say it.

I don't think my emotions are a good basis to write laws, and I 100% agree with the laws that make behavior like this illegal. But if I were to be put in the position of having to judge that man, and if I were to try to imagine what I'd be feeling if I watched some drunk smear my kids all over the road... I'd want to bring that ******* back to life so I could shoot him in the face some more.

And there is the crux of it.

Emotions may not be a good foundation for penal code, but begorrah, there are many laws on the books firmly entrenched in "emotion".
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:22   #78
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Originally Posted by sputnik767 View Post
Just out of curiosity, those of you who would vote "not guilty," you would vote this way based on what? He is clearly guilty of something. Maybe not murder, but manslaughter for sure. Keep in mind that this is not about the drunk driving ******* deserving punishment, and this case is pretty cut and dry at the moment. The way it seems, guy's truck broke down on a dark road, he had his 2 kids come out and push (on a dark road), drunk driver slammed into the rear end of his truck and killed his 2 kids. And then, it seems that the guy went into his house, got his gun, came out and shot the drunk driver. So, on what premise can you actually acquit this guy? He directly put his own kids in danger, and then denied the guy his constitutional rights by taking the law into his own hands.

And what if the guy had not been drunk, but had been rounding a dark curve and didn't see the stalled vehicle until it was too late? Would you not blame the father in that case?

And let's not forget that these kinds of actions (and 3 pages of people defending these actions) give the antis more fuel against us.
Jury nullification. Basically saying "Yeah, the guy did it, but we're not going to find him guilty because we would've done the same thing and feel the response was justified." Or basically something to that extent.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:22   #79
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Just out of curiosity, those of you who would vote "not guilty," you would vote this way based on what?
Temporary insanity.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:23   #80
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
After reading the article I got a sense of what happened. It is not like he stalked this guy to his house while he was out on bond and shot him in his front yard, or kicked in his door and drug him by his hair and shot him execution style.

His two boys got turned into road pizza before his eyes, and the guy sloshes out of the vehicle and does his best Urkel impersonation:

The Okie Corral

sweet baby jesus I cannot believe you have a badge.

Hell, I can't believe you have a driver's license.


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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Given what we know from the brief article I'm not inclined to agree with the mob here. The man's truck broke down (possibly due to his negligence), so instead of calling a tow truck he has his son's push the truck along a county road late at night (almost midnight) in complete darkness (in a curve?) in an attempt to get it started. Someone comes down the road and collides with a disabled dark object. It could just as easily been your wife or child who hit the truck. An accident, but 'Mr. I can't get my truck started' decides to shoot victim #3 after he negligently put victims #1 & #2 at great risk, costing them their lives.

The intoxicated driver obviously has liability but I don't buy the concept that it's exclusive, or that it justifies murder.
as usual I agree with you Hummer.

the Dad was wrong to begin with and put his kids in an unsafe situation, the drunk was an idiot and ultimately to blame, but the situation as described is murder, on both their parts.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:25   #81
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPicaro View Post
...
Either way the fact is this man is a murderer and deserves to be punished. Temporarily insane might be his excuse and I probably could buy it, but nevertheless the man took the law into his own hands. If he can do that, what other things can people justify?

Yes, he does deserve to be punished. He is living with the blood of that drunk driver on his hands, and he is living with the stupidity of his actions setting off a chain of events that placed their vehicle in the path of a drunk driver who killed both his kids.

Sounds like a lifetime of anguish to me.

I say we give him the same "punishment" we were gonna mete out to the drunk driver. What is that, 1 year incarceration and a revocation of driving privileges for 364 days?
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:30   #82
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One son dead on site - one was transported - DOA.

Did the father leave his critically injured son to walk home and get a gun?
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:31   #83
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Given what we know from the brief article I'm not inclined to agree with the mob here. The man's truck broke down (possibly due to his negligence), so instead of calling a tow truck he has his son's push the truck along a county road late at night (almost midnight) in complete darkness (in a curve?) in an attempt to get it started. Someone comes down the road and collides with a disabled dark object. It could just as easily been your wife or child who hit the truck. An accident, but 'Mr. I can't get my truck started' decides to shoot victim #3 after he negligently put victims #1 & #2 at great risk, costing them their lives.

The intoxicated driver obviously has liability but I don't buy the concept that it's exclusive, or that it justifies murder.
I've push started many vehicles in less than ideal conditions. Having perpetual drunk drivers off the road makes for a safer environment to do so when necessary.

Because you know, sometimes cars break down despite our best efforts. Whenever someone winds up drunk behind the wheel their best efforts have nothing to do with it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:37   #84
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wasn't it Texas where the guy shot his son's (grandson) molester in the company of LE and walked.
That guy was convicted in a court of law. The driver here wasn't afforded that right. HH
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:39   #85
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
One son dead on site - one was transported - DOA.

Did the father leave his critically injured son to walk home and get a gun?
From the article posted, yes. It appears as if he wanted to go Bubba on this guy rather than attend to the surviving son. HH
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:43   #86
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alot of fail on both sides

one you dont have kids pushing vehicles on the road . dads fault
drunk driver hit and killed them - drunks fault

its a hard choice , no one wins .

if someone killed my kids like that i would prolly do same thing ,but id expect jail time also
Pushing a car down the road has risk. Call a tow truck.

I remember hearing something like this in the news when I lived in NM. Someone stopped to help push a stalled car and they were hit from behind. If I remember correctly, the good samaritan lost his legs

I have helped people who were stalled get the car off the road, but even then I was watching closely for appraoching cars.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:49   #87
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I have two boys. I would have done the same damn thing. I feel terrible for the father. Im glad that the driver got what he deserved. If I did that, Id want to die. People don't realize the responsibility they have when they sit behind the wheel of a vehicle. No prison sentance would be enough of a punishment.
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Old 02-11-2013, 20:53   #88
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From the sounds of it he was pretty close to home, why not push it down down the block to get it home. It's plenty safe if the other drivers are sober. Also underage drinker with double the legal limit in his system by the time he was tested. I'm sure it wasn't hard for the father to figure that one out, as the driver was probably .20 at time of accident.

Now could I convict the father, not sure I could depending on a couple more details not included in the story.


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Old 02-11-2013, 21:38   #89
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
they dont have a weapon (yet)......circumstancial evidence so far....he could walk.
Maybe the gunshot residue test will be inconclusive.

Maybe the similar ammo found in the house is the most common ammo in that county.

Maybe the distraught drunk driver shot himself in the head and reflexively flung the pistol away in the dark.

Maybe somebody found or stole the missing handgun.

Maybe the witnesses will not seem credible, or confident if they take the stand.

Maybe he'll walk, maybe temporary insanity.

He shouldn't have left his gun at home; it's better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.

Open carry would have simplified this.
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Old 02-11-2013, 21:41   #90
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From the sounds of it he was pretty close to home, why not push it down down the block to get it home. It's plenty safe if the other drivers are sober. Also underage drinker with double the legal limit in his system by the time he was tested. I'm sure it wasn't hard for the father to figure that one out, as the driver was probably .20 at time of accident.

Now could I convict the father, not sure I could depending on a couple more details not included in the story.


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I do not believe it is safe to push a disabled vehicle on a dark country road. Certainly not have your preteen sons do it. If you really want to, have one of them steer and you push. Maybe he would have seen the car coming and gotten the hell out of the way. I've driven plenty of twisty country roads, with speeds of 55+ mph. It may be impossible to stop in time even if you're sober. I've almost hit a deer that was stopped in the middle of my lane before, and I wasn't rounding a turn either. It can be hard to see in the dark. I'm splitting the blame here, more to the drunk of course, but the father is not blameless here either. I mean honestly, if I'm in the car with my GF and the car needs a push, guess who's going to go out there and do it. It sure as hell isn't going to be her. I also have an 11 year old brother, and he isn't going out there to push the car either. What the father did is negligent at the very least.

Maybe it was temporary insanity, but he has no legal protection for what he did. There is a very good chance that even if his charge is reduced or he walks, he's going to be paying for the rest of his life for the lawsuit that the drunken idiot's family is going to bring on.

Last edited by sputnik767; 02-11-2013 at 21:47..
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Old 02-11-2013, 21:55   #91
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Personally, I don't give two ****s about what "antis" think. It would have been the same to me if he'd gone home for a machete and chopped the guy up in 10000 tiny pieces by the roadside.

Drunk drivers really do deserve roadside execution, particularly since the actions of booze on human bodies tend to make their odds of surviving such an incident greater, it seems.
Wow, incredible. You already have me believing that you should not own a gun. And that takes talent. But I guess advocating murder will do it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 21:56   #92
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
One son dead on site - one was transported - DOA.

Did the father leave his critically injured son to walk home and get a gun?
Apparently so.
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:17   #93
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Originally Posted by sputnik767 View Post
Wow, incredible. You already have me believing that you should not own a gun. And that takes talent. But I guess advocating murder will do it.

You have me believing you are either stupid, or playing dense for the audience.

I BELIEVE that people who drink and drive, and injure/kill other people have automatically voided their right to exist among other people. If I were grand supreme ruler of the country I would pass a decree as such -

along with decrees on robbery (chop off a body part); rape (much of the same); child molestation (lights out), etc etc.

What I have said in this thread is what I believe, and what I have said is how I would vote if I were a juror on his jury.

I've not advocated that I would shoot someone roadside for offing my kid - but it should really be legal , and I've certainly am not advocating that folks take that course of action.

Now live up to your presentation of being in medical school, apply those critical thinking skills you should have, and learn how to discern from what I think, compared to what I do.

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Old 02-11-2013, 22:20   #94
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That guy was convicted in a court of law. The driver here wasn't afforded that right. HH
No, he was being flown back for trial.
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:24   #95
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Wow, incredible. You already have me believing that you should not own a gun. And that takes talent. But I guess advocating murder will do it.
You're in med school, right? I assume you've dealt with the victims of drunk drivers in some clinical setting or another, in some capacity. I completely believe that anyone who gets behind the wheel while drunk and ruins someone else's life, has forfeited their own.
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:26   #96
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I have to admit. What some have posted here. If a anti gunner says to me "explain why they should be allowed to own, much less carry a firearm" I couldn't do it.
Folks that can't understand really need to consider carrying a firearm.. (or pocket knife, hammer, drive a car.....)

Do I HATE DUI folks? Dang tooting. The paramedics were NOT dispatched to my accident because EMTs said I would be long dead before they got to scene. I lost a promised job as LEO with small dept. Pain, discomfort for rest of my life, 2 months in hospital, many surguries, (more to come) Just under a GALLON of donated blood (when all said/done). etc.etc.... So I HATE impared drivers.
Fine them, take away lic, make them do comm service, ignition interlock,..... Murder. NO.
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:31   #97
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No, he was being flown back for trial.
Thanks for the correction. If so, my opinion of the "father on the phone at the airport" has taken a deep, deep dive. HH
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:32   #98
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
With the exception that DWI homocide is treated as less than a manslaughter in most cases. It should be treated as first degree murder. Why? The person made a concious, premediated decision to become intoxicated and then take a 5 ton weapon and not care if they killed peoplw with it. Which they clearly did.

I have no sympathy for the dead drunk driver. Not even a little.
+ alot
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:46   #99
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You're in med school, right? I assume you've dealt with the victims of drunk drivers in some clinical setting or another, in some capacity. I completely believe that anyone who gets behind the wheel while drunk and ruins someone else's life, has forfeited their own.
I did a 1 month rotation on the trauma surgery service in a level 1 trauma center hospital. I have seen what drunk driving can do, and one case in particular will stay with me forever. I'm not going to talk about it due to HIPAA. What I don't believe is that people should take matters into their own hands and dish out justice as they see fit. This is America, not butthole Afghanistan or sub-Saharan Africa. Note that I never said that our punishments for drunk drivers are adequate, nor am I advocating leniency.

Last edited by sputnik767; 02-11-2013 at 22:57..
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Old 02-11-2013, 22:56   #100
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You have me believing you are either stupid, or playing dense for the audience.

I BELIEVE that people who drink and drive, and injure/kill other people have automatically voided their right to exist among other people. If I were grand supreme ruler of the country I would pass a decree as such -

along with decrees on robbery (chop off a body part); rape (much of the same); child molestation (lights out), etc etc.

What I have said in this thread is what I believe, and what I have said is how I would vote if I were a juror on his jury.

I've not advocated that I would shoot someone roadside for offing my kid - but it should really be legal , and I've certainly am not advocating that folks take that course of action.

Now live up to your presentation of being in medical school, apply those critical thinking skills you should have, and learn how to discern from what I think, compared to what I do.

- G
First off, I'm not giving out medical advice here, I don't have to live up to my presentation for anybody on this board. I'm not here in the capacity of a physician.

Second, your belief that drunk drivers deserve roadside killing has me believing that your mind isn't exactly in the right place. Your gun is there to protect yourself and your loved ones, not to dish out justice as you see fit. I'm not saying that we should not have harsher punishments for the types of criminals that you've described, but it is not your call to make. And there is no way you can spin roadside killings into something that doesn't allude to a vigilante style execution.

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