GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-04-2013, 01:23   #26
larry_minn
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSU74 View Post
Just don't go rolling around in the snow, or dirt, or anything that could lock up the holster..


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Yes that is true. I often do mention that. Like any car/truck/gun/tool/holster... there are concerns. IF you roll around in sand, dirt and get the opening mech gummed up the gun will NOT release.
Also if you pull UP before you hit release its dang hard to make it release. (so PRACTICE the draw, most folks are smart enough to practice with UNLOADED gun at first) When you practice do things wrong and see what happens. Maybe you can't keep your finger off trigger. (so chamber empty is good choice for you) :0
larry_minn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 07:18   #27
Spiffums
I.C.P.
 
Spiffums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,097
When a quality holster costs $70+......I wouldn't trust $30 holster anymore than I would carry the bargain white/Yellow box hollow points.
__________________
Internet Celebrity Personality
Spiffums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 08:07   #28
bennie1986
Senior Member
 
bennie1986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiffums View Post
When a quality holster costs $70+......I wouldn't trust $30 holster anymore than I would carry the bargain white/Yellow box hollow points.
So i guess you shouldn't carry your cheap $500 glock because there are more expensive guns like 1911's that cost $1500. Thats make them more reliable right?
bennie1986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 08:43   #29
B.Reid
Senior Member
 
B.Reid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 2,285
something to think about.

__________________
Embrace the apocalypse!

Earth has always been a dangerous place to live. Be prepared!
B.Reid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 09:05   #30
PVolk
Senior Member
 
PVolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 937
I wish Blackhawk would develop SERPA holsters that accomodate popular weapon lights like the TLR-1. As much as I love my SERPA, I won't be using it much anymore because I recently started carrying with a light.
__________________
NRA Life Member
*19c, 23c, 24*
PVolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 12:11   #31
IronWalnutz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SE, PA
Posts: 11
I winter carry my G27 in a Serpa holster and have never had one complaint. I find my finger in the perfect position, along side the trigger guard, upon drawing the gun and it is comfortable and secure while holstered. I have large hands and still don't need to bend my finger to release the locking mechanism so I fail to see how that is an issue. Proper amount of training with this holster should be all you need. Just my .02 though
IronWalnutz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 08:04   #32
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483
Got to love those emotionally invested in the serpa and calling those who see how dangerous the serpa is haters & making fun of them like saying haters got to hate....

Fact of the matter is the SERPA holster has been banned at many major firearms training institutes & ranges, some federal LEO's are forbidden to use it...people with more trigger and training time & who do it for a living thn the vast majority of people here have said it's dangerous...yet the fan boys argue how it works for them...and how great a holster it is....all cuz they are emotionally invested in a cheap piece of injection molded plastic....instead of actually getting a expensive quality holster....
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 08:48   #33
IronWalnutz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SE, PA
Posts: 11
People get emotionally invested in many items they purchase, hence someones passion for a Glock vs. Sig, Ford vs. Dodge, etc.
I prefer my $40 Serpa holster to my $80+ Don hume leather holster for winter carry. My favorite holster is my Crossbreed Supertuck for year around carry. I also have a Galco King tuk for my G19 along with a drawer full of other name brand holsters I just don't use anymore.
It's not just a money thing, it's about preference and experience. While I won't discount the fact that there are crappy holsters out their, Fobus, Uncle Mike's etc. They still serve their purpose for some and I would put the Serpa in line with affordable, quality, for the average to experienced shooter. Again just my .02 but, I don't over generalize something just because it doesn't suit my needs, I base my opinion off of experience.

Last edited by IronWalnutz; 02-05-2013 at 08:49..
IronWalnutz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 09:07   #34
Hedo1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,243
No issue with the three I have and I don't baby them at all.
__________________
Every Saint has a past...every Sinner a future.
Hedo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 17:24   #35
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483
To:
Law Enforcement and Investigations Leadership Team
Several law enforcement agencies, including FLETC, have experienced incidents where students and field agents/officers using Blackhawk SERPA holsters have had accidental discharges resulting in personal injury and or property damage.

FLETC recently issued a notice to all Partner Organizations, advising of two recent incidents where students with Blackhawk SERPA holsters have had accidental discharges resulting in personal injury. On April 17, 2012, FLETC held a meeting with Partner Organizations and advised that holsters with an auto locking/finger release, such as the Blackhawk SERPA holster will immediately be banned from use in the training environment. FLETC had recently banned all instructors from using the SERPA Blackhawk holster while on FLETC firearms ranges and while working with students and was expanded to any use of these holsters on the firearms ranges at FLETC. However, DHS OGC is now reviewing the ban and FLETC is awaiting the OGC opinion before making their final determination.

The „SERPA Active Retention‟ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button (from the outside of the holster) and as the lock (which engages inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered).
While Blackhawk may have intended for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the pad of the index finger, under stress and given time constraints, users tend to push the button with the tip of their finger disengaging the retention device with direct inward pressure of the finger-tip. When the finger-tip pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw removing the weapon from the holster, the finger-tip tends to stay engaged in the same position used to disengage the retention device and can enter the trigger guard, making contact with the trigger, causing an unintentional discharge.
The Blackhawk SERPA release button can result in an unintended continuation of the movement of the trigger finger toward the trigger due to the “push button” motion required to complete the weapon draw. This unintended movement of the trigger finger has been observed during training with students and field agents when placed in some form of elevated stress situations.

In addition, there have been several reports from law enforcement and the military of debris (such as a pin head size pebble) getting lodged behind the release button inside the holster, making the withdrawal of the weapon from the holster impossible. Exterior examination of the holster is unable to detect whether debris has entered the internal working mechanism of the retention device within the holster. Thus, realization by the user that the holster has become
Law Enforcement and Investigations Leadership Team 2
inoperable due to debris will only be realized when the user unsuccessfully tries to draw the firearm from the holster and is denied access to the weapon.

The Air Force, Office of Special Investigations, (OSI), had incidents where debris has made the holster inoperable, thus making the withdrawal of the weapon impossible. Air Force OSI has banned the use of the Blackhawk holster. Also there are other federal agencies that have discontinued the use of these holsters.

The National Academy does not issue these types of holsters to our new hires, however, it is my understanding that several officers and agents in the field have purchased these types of holsters. The National Academy also does not currently issue the SERPA Taser holster to new hires. We issued the holster for a short time and discovered when there was significant stress on the holster, such as the officer engaged in ground fighting, the holster would release retention and the Taser would fall from the holster.

With the above in mind, due to safety concerns regarding the SERPA Firearm holster and SERPA Taser holster, the use of these types of holsters and any other holsters with the same type of auto locking/finger release is no longer authorized. Please ensure that any of your personnel who utilize these types of holsters discontinue their use until further notice.
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 17:25   #36
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND DECISION

As a result of four separate incidentsi related to auto-lock, trigger finger manipulation holsters [Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II holsters (ii) (low wall)], the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) requested that a study be conducted to identifY any common causative factors unique to this holster design. The study was assigned to Firearms Division (FAD) at FLETC-Glynco with assistance from the FLETC Field Training Directorate (FTD). A subsequent companion study of the Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II Holster (high wall) was also conducted which resulted in similar findings.

The scope of both holster studies was devised to identify any safety related problems unique to the deactivation of the retention device while drawing and presenting the firearm. This testing included the following components:
a review ofthe current FAD curriculum;
review of FAD Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs);
an interview of the student involved in the FLETC-Glynco accident; a search to identify and verifY other outside incidents within the firearms training community;
and psycho-motor skills testing(iii) of the process of drawing a weapon from the auto-lock trigger finger manipulation holster.

The participants completed written feedback critiques at the conclusion oftheir session. Also, there was limited video recording of certain portions of the testing.

SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
The conclusions and results gathered from the analysis of holster testing and participant feedback was captured in separate reports at the completion of both the studies.

~ Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failures (iv). This series of failures is first recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.

• This inability is caused by:
o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
deactivation of the retention mechanism.
o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature "locks" the pistol in the holster.
Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
holster and tends to transition from digital-pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger.
o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.

~ The feedback from the majority of the FAD staff' that participated in the study indicates that a holster that requires multi-tasking of the trigger finger or that has a release mechanism closely proximal to the trigger is potentially problematic by increasing the risk of an inadvertent discharge. Subsequent review of the studies by the FLETC FTD SMEs also concluded that proximity of the finger to the trigger creates an inherent safety risk.

~ The proctors that administered the testing are all SMEs (vi) from the FLETC Basic and/or Advanced Firearm Training Programs and. The recommendation provided by these SMEs regarding the use of this style holster range from "hesitant to recommend the use of" to "should not be used in training. "

~ The frame by frame review ofthe video from the intern/CITP student portion of the psychomotor skills testing indicates that during approximately 25% ofthe draw strokes the shooter's trigger finger was proximal to the trigger and approximately 13% ofthe draw strokes began out of sequence (low wall study).

~ The interview with the CITP student involved in the training accident on December 13, 2011,
revealed that the curriculum and presentation of that curriculum was appropriate and complete.
The student indicated that he experienced a sequencing error and discharged his weapon.

~ An informal survey was conducted of commercial and private firearms training facilities. Several responses included; this style of holsters can be used but must have the release mechanism disabled, or cannot be used at a facility.

DECISION
Based upon the known facts, SME observations and both holster study findings, the FLETC submits the following training decision:

~ The FLETC is restricting the use of level II retention, auto lock-trigger finger release style holsters during all firearms training on FLETC firearms ranges. Holsters that possess a single retention release mechanism that is located proximal to the trigger area of the firearm are problematic and pose a safety hazard. Holsters that include additional release mechanisms (level III retention) should be evaluated for suitability prior to use on FLETC firearms ranges. This restriction will be classified as a "local range rule" which the FLETC has used in the past to improve safety practices during firearms training at all FLETC training sites.

Notes:
(i) The first incident, an Unintentional Discharge (UD), occurred on July 20, 2010, at FLETC-Glynco. This incident was the result
of the shooter's jacket becoming entangled in the holster during the process of re-holstering the pistol. The three most recent
incidents were apparent Negligent Discharges (ND) and occurred on October 27, 2011, at FLETC-Cheltenham, on December 13,
2011 , at FLETC-Glynco and on March 30, 2012, at FLETC-Cheltenham. All of these ND's resulted in self-inflicted injuries.

(ii) The Auto-Lock Trigger Finger Manipulation Holster has been available commercially since 2006. It is available for most
models of pistols and revolvers. This holster is available in both left and right hand models. As a retention holster, this design
protects and retains the firearm as designed. The holster is designed with an auto-lock system that securely holds and "locks" the
firearm in the holster when the firearm is inserted. There is no need to manipulate any portion of the holster to secure the
firearm. The release for the retention mechanism is located on the exterior of the holster on the outboard side, in the area of the
trigger/trigger guard ofthe firearm. To operate the release the shooter establishes his/her strong-hand grip, extending and
straightening the index finger (trigger finger). The shooter then applies digital-pad pressure with the trigger finger to the "release
button". This action deactivates the retention device allowing the shooter to draw and present the firearm.

(iii) This testing consisted of a series of draw stroke drills that commenced with 4 second facings and were reduced incrementally to
.75 seconds. These skills were conducted both strong-hand (two-hand) and support-hand (one-hand).

(iv) A cascading series offailures is best described as non-sequenced, repetitive actions that place the shooter in danger of
experiencing a Negligent Discharge.

(v) This group consisted of 49 FAD instructional staff members (FLETC staff and Partner Organization (PO) representatives) with
approximately 294 years of instructional experience.


(vi) These SMEs possess 120 years of active firearms training experience. They are the Lead Instructors with program oversight
for the following programs: CITP, UPTP, LMPT, RSITP, SSTP, LERTP and FITP
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 17:31   #37
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483
Gabe Suarez has banned SERPA from his range/classes, Lary Vickers has banned SERPA holsters from his classes as has Gunsite among other trainers/ranges along with LEO agencies, some local/state & even at the federal level...and more instructors/ranges/departments are banning them all the time, this is what the police call a clue

Last edited by Joey; 02-05-2013 at 17:32..
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 17:34   #38
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483


You can tell some peole have never been in a situation where they are amped up, how the fine motor skils go to hell and under reald world situations the serpa is extremly dangerous.


Safariland retention holsters are way better than serpa
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 17:35   #39
Joey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 483
http://link.brightcove.com/services/...=1178555509001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxpXU...ayer_embedded#!

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...-at-the-serpa/

Last edited by Joey; 02-05-2013 at 17:36..
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 20:55   #40
larry_minn
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17,799
PM me for address to get rid of those dangerous holsters.
larry_minn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 19:51   #41
frontier2011
Give Me Brass
 
frontier2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast
Posts: 263
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND DECISION

i like my serpa cqc
if you cant handle one, sell your gun, you shouldnt be carrying a weapon to begin with
frontier2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 11:39   #42
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,858
I used a molle mount version on the front of my IBA a few times during a deployment. It was new in the wrap...seemed pretty decent, but did lock the pistol in once...not sure why.

They seem cheap and effective, but the AD issue is curious.

I don't think that LE is at the top of the heap, but they tend to identify stuff that affects the lowest skill-set...so there's some merit to the warnings.

They've done a little redesign I believe. The button appears to be more of a "lay your finger on it" now, than a press the shrouded button type.

Cheap....that's the attraction.
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 07:57   #43
GlockItToMe
Member
 
GlockItToMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Smyrna ,TN
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
I used a molle mount version on the front of my IBA a few times during a deployment. It was new in the wrap...seemed pretty decent, but did lock the pistol in once...not sure why.

They seem cheap and effective, but the AD issue is curious.

I don't think that LE is at the top of the heap, but they tend to identify stuff that affects the lowest skill-set...so there's some merit to the warnings.

They've done a little redesign I believe. The button appears to be more of a "lay your finger on it" now, than a press the shrouded button type.

Cheap....that's the attraction.
Amen brother, you can't make it idiot proof.
__________________
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.
Frank Zappa
G22 G23 G27
NRA Life Member
GlockItToMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 14:35   #44
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,846
Seems to me that this holster design is a bad idea.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 17:58   #45
larry_minn
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Seems to me that this holster design is a bad idea.
Very similar to the Glock pistol design. Folks who can't keep finger off trigger have issues. Police Officers are NOT (always) gun people. To some the gun is a PITA they have to carry, train with...
Lets look at first yrs of Glock. Hundreds of claims of "ADs" and "overfiring" Folks who didn't know WTF they were doing (for some reason) were NOT expecting the dang gun to fire EVERY time you pull trigger.
You look at training groups. They have to make rules to lowest trained person. (to be safe) Few training places allow shoulder rigs. I have talked to instructor on 2nd day. They have signed off on it. For safety they can't allow folks that are unsafe to use equipment that requires a HINT more caution.
BTW I am still looking for Left hand SERPA for G 19 and/or G26. Thanks. (and thanks for offer on the Sig holster. As I don't have any no thanks)
larry_minn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 07:41   #46
Bill Lumberg
BTF Inventor
 
Bill Lumberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,854
In reality, it's a very good design. Not what I'd recommend for the average ccw'er, but in trained hands, not bad for a budget priced holster. FLETC had some issues with new shooters (folks going through initial firearms training as part of their academy). The average serving (not brand new attending an academy) LEO is quite proficient at weapon handling. It's only on the internet that we pretend that the average CCW'er is magically far ahead of professional gun toters in marksmanship and weapon handling skills. But I suppose that's part of what the internet is for. Jamiroquai.
__________________
Did someone talk to you about your TPS reports?
Bill Lumberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 07:50   #47
gooffeyguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry_minn View Post
BTW I am still looking for Left hand SERPA for G 19 and/or G26. Thanks. (and thanks for offer on the Sig holster. As I don't have any no thanks)
I've seen them at the local Cabela's here.
gooffeyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 16:47   #48
allegro
Senior Member
 
allegro's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis Tennessee, well just North
Posts: 466
Though I do NOT carry with a Serpa, I do see where it could be a positive.

My 14 years of carry have all been with a Fobus Paddle, and I am experienced and well practiced in all aspects of carry and this holster. This holster too gets much "hate" so I understand all that is posted. PRACTICE is the key to safe and effective carry.

HOWEVER, I am wondering about a "retention holster" as I ride my 4 wheeler around our river property. I am not doing "tricks" on the bike, rather just riding for enjoyment and checking things out on our land-development property. Having a positive retention system "could" guarantee that my G23 does not come dislodged.

Currently, I do ride with the Fobus, and even choose to wear on the "off side" when wearing a zipped jacket or coverall camos. Easier to cross-draw on the bike from just a slight unzip of the jacket or covers.

Be safe everyone.
__________________
Be a productive member of society, but be prepared.

G23 (Gen3) Carry, G19 (Gen 4), Advantage Arms .22 Conversion, Ruger P89, Ruger Security Six .357, M&P 15, Ithica Model 37, Winchester Model 24, Ruger 10/22

Last edited by allegro; 02-11-2013 at 16:49..
allegro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 17:50   #49
NEOH212
Diesel Girl
 
NEOH212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 8,801
I've had too many close calls with this holster in dry fire practice to ever bring myself to put a loaded gun in it.

It's a fast holster and retains the gun well but it's not a safe design. Besides, the thing hands what seems to be a foot off of your hip and doesn't conceal well under anything but a jacket or vest.

There is far better on the market. To each their own though.
__________________
When we do hit it we hit it out of the park and send it over to China as quickly as possible to cheapen it and sell it.
NEOH212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 18:32   #50
B.Reid
Senior Member
 
B.Reid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 2,285
I find that leather makes the best ccw holster, much more form fitting.
__________________
Embrace the apocalypse!

Earth has always been a dangerous place to live. Be prepared!
B.Reid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:35.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,130
341 Members
789 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42