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Old 02-08-2013, 13:50   #21
RussP
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
can you post links that show successful warrants served on the proper house, then do a risk assessment based on percentages of warrants correctly served vs those that went to bad addresses? Nationwide data would be appreciated and would demonstrate a knowledge of proper methodology.
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Originally Posted by razorsharp View Post
there are many instances of those agents going to the wrong address and using deadly force on innocent "poor and downtrodden citizens", aren't there?
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Originally Posted by jbntx View Post
"many instances"???...

Law enforcement going to the wrong address and using deadly force on innocent citizens is extremely rare. It is the exception, not the norm at you make it out to be.

The truth is that the average american citizen, that has broken no laws. Has a greater chance of being struck by lightening, winning the lottery and killed in a car wreck all on the same day, than they do of ever being killed in a drone attack.
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man dies in police raid on wrong house
http://abcnews.go.com/us/story?id=95475&page=1

police raid wrong house, kill family dog and make children sit with its bloody corpse
http://www.naturalnews.com/036698_po...#ixzz2kkbhcybw

police raid wrong house, kill 61-year old man
http://www.policemisconduct.net/poli...-year-old-man/

slc police apologize for no-knock raid on wrong house
http://fox13now.com/2012/10/05/slc-p...n-wrong-house/

ogden police sorry for hitting wrong house, but veterans say officer safety comes first
http://www.standard.net/stories/2013...ty-comes-first

i could go on, but i believe you get the point. It ain't "extremely rare".
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Originally Posted by razorsharp View Post
i didn't make it out to be the norm, you're creating a strawman to knock down. As far as the number of instances, it has been far more than once, and one time is too many.
Yes, one mistake is too many, and yes, it has happened "many" times, and for many reasons.

Rarity requires comparison. You say it is not rare, yet you refuse to quantify the number of mistakes to the total number of warrant services. Why?

You say more than one is too many. Using your number, you would say that 5 out of 10,000, just to pick a number, 0.05% is not rare. At what percentage of total warrant services does the number pass from rare to not rare?
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:55   #22
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
Warrants served on the proper house are supposed to be all of the time.

For the innocent citizen, who has never had a warrant processed against him, he's looking at a 100% failure rate.
How many people do doctors kill each year through mistakes?

How many non alcohol related traffic deaths are there per year in the country?

If you want to hang officers for mistakes let's get the gallows ready for everybody.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:41   #23
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Razorsharp, did they come to your house?
I live in a rural area. One day, while I was outside, I noticed a van parked at the end of my driveway. It sat there for a length of time that indicated to me that whoever was in the van was doing something other than trying to figure out where he was. I started down the driveway to see if I could assist whoever was in the van, when the van took off. I noticed that the van stopped at my neighbor's house about 300 yds away. I got in my truck and caught up with the van, which was occupied by a thirty-something man and woman. I asked if I could help them. They then explained what they were doing and showed me the hand-held unit they were using to record GPS locations of addresses.

For those who have been incredulous over me referring to that as an intrusion, yes, it is an intrusion.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:48   #24
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
I live in a rural area. One day, while I was outside, I noticed a van parked at the end of my driveway. It sat there for a length of time that indicated to me that whoever was in the van was doing something other than trying to figure out where he was. I started down the driveway to see if I could assist whoever was in the van, when the van took off. I noticed that the van stopped at my neighbor's house about 300 yds away. I got in my truck and caught up with the van, which was occupied by a thirty-something man and woman. I asked if I could help them. They then explained what they were doing and showed me the hand-held unit they were using to record GPS locations of addresses.

For those who have been incredulous over me referring to that as an intrusion, yes, it is an intrusion.
What did you do that caused the men in black to target your house?
Have you been hosting intergalactic keggers?

..

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Old 02-08-2013, 14:59   #25
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If you want to hang officers for mistakes let's get the gallows ready for everybody.
I don't want to hang officers, that's another strawman. However LEOs are not pure as the wind driven snow, either. How about the ones that sprayed the pickup thinking it was Dorner, and instead, shot two innocent women. I'm sure their hearts were in the right place, but a screw-up of that magnitude is a hanging offense.
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:04   #26
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What did you do that caused the men in black to target your house?
Have you been hosting intergalactic keggers?

..
Thank you for providing me with an indication as to what type of person you are.

I make it a policy to ignore intellectual pissants.
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:28   #27
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
I live in a rural area. One day, while I was outside, I noticed a van parked at the end of my driveway. It sat there for a length of time that indicated to me that whoever was in the van was doing something other than trying to figure out where he was. I started down the driveway to see if I could assist whoever was in the van, when the van took off. I noticed that the van stopped at my neighbor's house about 300 yds away. I got in my truck and caught up with the van, which was occupied by a thirty-something man and woman. I asked if I could help them. They then explained what they were doing and showed me the hand-held unit they were using to record GPS locations of addresses.

For those who have been incredulous over me referring to that as an intrusion, yes, it is an intrusion.
Thank you for answering that question, yet again, I asked:
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Yes, one mistake is too many, and yes, it has happened "many" times, and for many reasons.

Rarity requires comparison. You say it is not rare, yet you refuse to quantify the number of mistakes to the total number of warrant services. Why?

You say more than one is too many. Using your number, you would say that 5 out of 10,000, just to pick a number, 0.05% is not rare. At what percentage of total warrant services does the number pass from rare to not rare?
Thanks....
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:28   #28
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
"many instances"???...

Law enforcement going to the wrong address and using deadly force on innocent citizens is extremely rare. It is the exception, not the norm at you make it out to be.
The exception, for sure. "Rare" is a relative term, though. Nifty interactive map for reference:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

Prepared by those commies at the Cato Institute.

[But yeah, the "GPS coordinates = invasion of privacy" thing is silly. And HEY, how about some opsec, for goodness' sake. You know AQ reads this forum and you go and reveal the thing about wrapping the house in foil!?]
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:32   #29
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
I don't want to hang officers, that's another strawman. However LEOs are not pure as the wind driven snow, either. How about the ones that sprayed the pickup thinking it was Dorner, and instead, shot two innocent women. I'm sure their hearts were in the right place, but a screw-up of that magnitude is a hanging offense.
There's always a "However..." or a "But...".

And do you believe those officers will not be held accountable under the law for their actions?
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:34   #30
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Its a good thing I'm allowed to sell my home and move out, isn't it?


As far as being a government apologist - I have been employed by a local agency for 13 years. I have faith that the government has no money, and no organization, by which to do what you hypothesize. I can't even get money to fix broken shotguns and the single helicopter in the air unit barely flies.


Drones, my ass.
This is the true truth and perhaps the greatest guarantor of liberty. It really helps me sleep at night.

I worked BRIEFLY for the federal government 30+ years ago. The degree of disorganization and disorder boggled my mind. It's not that I don't think there may be some folks in DC who WANT to catalog every GPS coordinate so they can send mind-beams into my house when I try posting libertarian stuff on GT -- it's just that I think they're probably keeping too busy trying to get the right size toner cartridge for the copier.

TJ said "That government is bets which governs least." We got lots of least.
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:38   #31
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The exception, for sure. "Rare" is a relative term, though. Nifty interactive map for reference:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap

Prepared by those commies at the Cato Institute.

[But yeah, the "GPS coordinates = invasion of privacy" thing is silly. And HEY, how about some opsec, for goodness' sake. You know AQ reads this forum and you go and reveal the thing about wrapping the house in foil!?]
Where in the Cato information is the total number of warrants served? Like you said, that "rare" word needs definition.
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Old 02-08-2013, 16:01   #32
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Where in the Cato information is the total number of warrants served? Like you said, that "rare" word needs definition.
Don't disagree, Russ. Entirely qualitative, not quantitative.

Not sure how "rare" would be quantified even with a measure against all warrants -- .01%? 0.1%? 1.0%

I think the Cato study (which is a bit out of date) demonstrates that it falls into the "more than you might think" or the "far from unheard of" categories.

Put it this way. I live in a really nice suburb of Miami. It happened twice in two years within a few miles of my house. One raid, the right address was MILES away in what amounts to a ghetto, instead of the million-dollar mini-mansion that got raided. Someone transposed SE or SW or something similar. Hard to imagine how it happened. But, it does.
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Old 02-08-2013, 20:30   #33
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And do you believe those officers will not be held accountable under the law for their actions?
Do you believe that officers ever benefit from what is known as the "Blue Code of Silence"?

Or another example

http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...ooting16m.html

Quote:
Rarity requires comparison. You say it is not rare, yet you refuse to quantify the number of mistakes to the total number of warrant services. Why?
Because it does not require a comparison. Rarity is quantified by frequency.
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You say more than one is too many. Using your number, you would say that 5 out of 10,000, just to pick a number, 0.05% is not rare. At what percentage of total warrant services does the number pass from rare to not rare?
Here, why don't you answer a question for a change? But it's going to be a tough one for you, because it is going to utterly refute the point you are trying to make.

Do you think that automobile fatalities are rare?
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:09   #34
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This is the true truth and perhaps the greatest guarantor of liberty. It really helps me sleep at night.

I worked BRIEFLY for the federal government 30+ years ago. The degree of disorganization and disorder boggled my mind. It's not that I don't think there may be some folks in DC who WANT to catalog every GPS coordinate so they can send mind-beams into my house when I try posting libertarian stuff on GT -- it's just that I think they're probably keeping too busy trying to get the right size toner cartridge for the copier.

TJ said "That government is bets which governs least." We got lots of least.
The part in bold made me laugh. And cry.

We only have one functioning printer in our report writing room.

There are two printers in the report writing room.
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Old 02-08-2013, 22:05   #35
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Do you believe that officers ever benefit from what is known as the "Blue Code of Silence"?
You do, you believe that very strongly. So what value would you give any answer I made? None...so no need to respond.
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His department ruled the shooting unjustified. They were going to fire him. He resigned before being fired.

The coroners inquest jury had mixed findings about the case, non conclusive findings. The prosecutor made the decision to not file charges.

Law enforcement ruled the shooting unjustified. The prosecutor would not prosecute. So law enforcement is to blame for prosecutor failure to prosecute based on the decisions of the coroner's inquest jurors.
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Because it does not require a comparison. Rarity is quantified by frequency.
Here, why don't you answer a question for a change? But it's going to be a tough one for you, because it is going to utterly refute the point you are trying to make.

Do you think that automobile fatalities are rare?
Strawman...this is about your claim that mistakes in warrant services are not rare.

Show that they are not rare. Use frequency if you wish. How many occur per day? Per week? Per month? Per quarter?

No one will disagree with you that even one erroneous service resulting in harm to an innocent is one too many. I doubt there is one department, agency, office that doesn't want there to be zero mistakes.

You read about the errors, the mistakes. Others of us read those stories and then read the comprehensive evaluations and the changes made based on what was learned from those mistakes.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:55   #36
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You do, you believe that very strongly. So what value would you give any answer I made? None...so no need to respond.
But you have no problem with posing questions for me. Personally, I'm glad you are not answering, because it is becoming tedious to jump through the hoops you set up.

Quote:
So law enforcement is to blame for prosecutor failure to prosecute based on the decisions of the coroner's inquest jurors.
Distrct Attorneys/Prosecutors are members of the law enforcement family.

Quote:
Strawman...this is about your claim that mistakes in warrant services are not rare.
No, you want to use ratios to make your case that warrant service errors are rare. So, I am going to use the same criteria to make my case. Automobiles are used millions of times per day. Using a ratio of fatalities/times used, you could make the case that auto fatalities are rare.

Furthermore, I went back to see how we got on this discussion. It all started when I said that there were "many instances" of warrant service errors, and JBnTx said that warrant service errors were "extremely rare".
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:18   #37
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Guess what, the government could have gone to walmart, before 2010, bought a $100 Garmin and punched in your address and it would take them straight to your house - at worst, they wasted money.

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Thank you for providing me with an indication as to what type of person you are.

I make it a policy to ignore intellectual pissants.
Says the guy who thinks the government had to send people down his street, in 2010, to get the GPS coordinates for his house.

Everybody in America has the GPS coordinates for your house. I can find you with my iPhone.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:35   #38
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Guess what, the government could have gone to walmart, before 2010, bought a $100 Garmin and punched in your address and it would take them straight to your house - at worst, they wasted money.
Which makes me question the official explaination of gathering that particular data. If it was wasn't really needed for the purpose they said, what purpose would it be needed for?

I find it a little too convenient when those who question the motives of government, can be easily dismissed with the perjorative of "conspiracy theorist".

When the Social Security Act was first being proposed, it was objected to because of the assigning of a number to everyone. The majority of people did not want an identifying number. The people's concerns were assuaged with the assurance that the number would never be used for identification.

By today's standards, those who objected to the "identifying number" would be ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists".
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:42   #39
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Says the guy who thinks the government had to send people down his street, in 2010, to get the GPS coordinates for his house.

Everybody in America has the GPS coordinates for your house. I can find you with my iPhone.
You're not very bright, are you?

The government admits they did this.

(Well, there's another one I can start ignoring.)
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:22   #40
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You do, you believe that very strongly. So what value would you give any answer I made? None...so no need to respond.
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But you have no problem with posing questions for me. Personally, I'm glad you are not answering, because it is becoming tedious to jump through the hoops you set up.
So you do not disagree that regardless of any rational, logical, factual answer I would provide, you would give it no value. Thanks for proving my point.

The answer to your original question is, unfortunately, yes. The problem exists as it does in many other professions. Coworkers cover for each others mistakes. People use authority to cover mistakes. People use professional status to cover their and others mistakes.

The more public the profession, the more distinct the profession, the more limited the number in the profession, the more exaggerated the claims of abuse become. Publicity in the media and the repetition of those reports on social media, including blogs, news collecting sites, agenda driven sites, all contribute to this exaggeration. One incident recited a thousand times becomes multiple events to many who do not take the time to research and learn that there really was just one event.

I don't imagine you talk to too many in law enforcement about this "Blue Wall" thing. If they trust you enough to talk, the conversation would be enlightening.

Okay, there's your answer. Now, lets get back to the tedious jumping through the hoops.
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Distrct Attorneys/Prosecutors are members of the law enforcement family.
True, and we know that cases can be presented to inquest juries, grand juries, in ways and manners to elicit a desired outcome. It's true. I've witnessed it happen.

Did you read about the disagreement within the inquest jury? That is in your linked article. Here is more about the jury. Jurors chosen in inquest into fatal shooting of woodcarver.

What's interesting here is the judge ruled that the jury would not be told that the department had ruled the shooting unjustified and the police chief had ordered Birk to turn in his badge and weapon.

Here is a detailed list of the jurors responses to questions put to them.
Quote:
Quote:
1. On August 20, 2010, did Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk observe John T. Williams crossing the street? Yes 8

2. Was John T. Williams holding an open knife at the time he was first observed by Officer Birk? Yes 8

3. Did Officer Birk get out of his patrol car to contact John T. Williams? Yes 8

4. Did Officer Birk gesture to John T. Williams to come back to Officer Birk's location? Yes 7 Unknown 1

5. Did John T. Williams have a knife in his hand when Officer Birk contacted him? Yes 8

6. Did Officer Birk order John T. Williams to put the knife down? Yes 8

If your answer to question 6 was yes, please answer the following four questions:

6a: Did Officer Birk order John T. Williams to put the knife down more than once? Yes 8

6b: Did John T. Williams have sufficient time to put the knife down after Officer Birk's order? Yes 1, No 4, Unknown 3

6c: Did John T. Williams try to put the knife down after Officer Birk's order? Unknown 8

6d: Did John T. Williams put the knife down before Officer Birk began to fire his weapon? No 8

7. Was the front of John T. Williams' upper body partially turned towards Officer Birk when Officer Birk began to fire his weapon? Yes 2, No 5, Unknown 1

7a: If no, was John T. Williams turning towards Officer Birk when Officer Birk fired his weapon? Yes 5

8. Did Officer Birk fire his weapon at John T. Williams on August 30, 2010? Yes 8

9. When Officer Birk fired his weapon, did John T. Williams have a knife in his hand? Yes 8

9a. If yes, was John T. Williams' knife blade open when Officer Birk fired his weapon? No 4, Unknown 4

10. Did Officer Birk believe that John T. Williams posed an imminent threat of serious physical harm to Officer Birk at the time Officer Birk fired his weapon? Yes 4, Unknown 4

11. Based on the information available at the time Officer Birk fired his weapon, did John T. Williams then pose an imminent threat of serious physical harm to Officer Birk? Yes 1, No 4, Unknown 3

12. Did John T. Williams die in King County, Washington on Aug. 30, 2010? Yes 8

13. Did John T. Williams die from the gunshot wounds caused by Officer Birk? Yes 8
The prosecutor "felt" that the inquest jury's opinion reflected the opinion a trial jury would have. Was he right? Maybe...maybe not, depending on whom you are listening to.

Do I think he should have been tried in a court of his peers? I do not know. I didn't sit in the inquest hearing room listening to all the testimony. I know from personal experience that news reports are hardly repositories of the actual facts of courtroom proceedings, so what is presented by the media is suspect.
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No, you want to use ratios to make your case that warrant service errors are rare. So, I am going to use the same criteria to make my case. Automobiles are used millions of times per day. Using a ratio of fatalities/times used, you could make the case that auto fatalities are rare.
Yes, I do want to focus exclusively on what you challenged. Good, you know how to do the math for automobiles. Apply that to warrant service errors.Thanks...
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Furthermore, I went back to see how we got on this discussion. It all started when I said that there were "many instances" of warrant service errors, and JBnTx said that warrant service errors were "extremely rare".
Which you challenged with...
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
I could go on, but I believe you get the point. It ain't "extremely rare".
...your challenge continuing that specific path of discussion.
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