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Old 02-08-2013, 10:16   #21
RussP
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Oh, and if this was a setup or plant to garner support for the AWB and gun control, wouldn't it make more sense for them to make him out to be a PRO-gun nut, rather than an anti??
Wouldn't matter.

I believe the media is using "shoulder fired weapon" to describe the firearm. How soon will that become part of the legislative lexicon?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:41   #22
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I think this is a case to show why you might need a 30 round magazine. If my family were in lockdown mode at home in the Big Bear area right now. I would want all the firepower possible to protect myself from this guy.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:37   #23
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Look at the number of bullet holes in this truck. Note the color and model of the truck, which contained two women.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...omen-shot.html

Let's see. . . the guy we're looking for is a black male with a shaved head. He stands 6-3 and goes 270 pounds. He's driving a dark-colored Nissan Titan. Hmmmm. Yeah, let's take the shot.

Sigh.
Time of day?

Lighting conditions?

Did the officers know at the time what make/model of truck they were looking for?

Any signs of erratic driving?

Failure to obey commands to stop?

Do dangerous suspects change vehicles to escape detection?

Do dangerous suspects change plates to escape detection?

Do dangerous suspects enlist family members or friends to assist them in criminal enterprises?

I could go on with a series of questionsI would be asking the officers and witnesses.

IIRC you are an attorney.

What does Graham vs. Connor say?
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:17   #24
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CA Cop, all fair questions, all considerations for the officers taking the shots, and -- yes -- all factors to apply to determine if the use of force was objectively reasonable. (I'll even concede that all, or most, are questions for which I don't know the answer as to this shoot.)

So, is it possible that the photo in the news story is a picture of the aftermath of the exercise of reasonable force? It is possible. Is it possible that it is something far less? Also possible.

All that said, this is not the only instance connected with the hunt for Dorner where innocents have been harmed by LEOs. That cannot be a part of the plan and you cannot be pleased by that yourself.

I hope you guys out there put this guy down soon and that nobody else gets hurt. I hope you are watching your six, as well. And I get that tensions must necessarily be running very high -- humans are human, after all, badge or no.

I will say this: I drive a Brown 2004 Nissan Titan and I'm 6-1 240. You can be damned sure if I lived in LA that truck would be in the garage right now, until this guy gets taken out.

[And in case it's not clear: No, I don't really think this is some kind of false flag. I just found the manifesto, I dunno, "too handy."]
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Last edited by tslex; 02-08-2013 at 13:19..
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:51   #25
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CA Cop, all fair questions, all considerations for the officers taking the shots, and -- yes -- all factors to apply to determine if the use of force was objectively reasonable. (I'll even concede that all, or most, are questions for which I don't know the answer as to this shoot.)

So, is it possible that the photo in the news story is a picture of the aftermath of the exercise of reasonable force? It is possible. Is it possible that it is something far less? Also possible.

All that said, this is not the only instance connected with the hunt for Dorner where innocents have been harmed by LEOs. That cannot be a part of the plan and you cannot be pleased by that yourself.

I hope you guys out there put this guy down soon and that nobody else gets hurt. I hope you are watching your six, as well. And I get that tensions must necessarily be running very high -- humans are human, after all, badge or no.

I will say this: I drive a Brown 2004 Nissan Titan and I'm 6-1 240. You can be damned sure if I lived in LA that truck would be in the garage right now, until this guy gets taken out.

[And in case it's not clear: No, I don't really think this is some kind of false flag. I just found the manifesto, I dunno, "too handy."]
I view the mistake of fact shootings in the case much like the Martin/Zimmerman case.

When the evidence is presented to me in a choherent and unemotional manner I will be better able to make a determination as to what charges, if any should be filed.

It is much like me showing up to a fender bender where both drivers are screaming at each other and me. Can I really conduct a good investigation at that point?
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:58   #26
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I view the mistake of fact shootings in the case much like the Martin/Zimmerman case.

When the evidence is presented to me in a choherent and unemotional manner I will be better able to make a determination as to what charges, if any should be filed.

It is much like me showing up to a fender bender where both drivers are screaming at each other and me. Can I really conduct a good investigation at that point?
Fair enough. Interesting connection to make to the Zimmerman matter.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:02   #27
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Time of day?

Lighting conditions?

Did the officers know at the time what make/model of truck they were looking for?

Any signs of erratic driving?

Failure to obey commands to stop?

Do dangerous suspects change vehicles to escape detection?

Do dangerous suspects change plates to escape detection?

Do dangerous suspects enlist family members or friends to assist them in criminal enterprises?

I could go on with a series of questionsI would be asking the officers and witnesses.

IIRC you are an attorney.

What does Graham vs. Connor say?
And combine that with two more shootings in the hours before, one while the Suspect was enroute to another target and got stopped enroute to.

Some reports say they drove around a roadblock against police instructions. Lights off. Given the totality of the facts and situation, I would hold back till all the facts can be presented.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:41   #28
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And combine that with two more shootings in the hours before, one while the Suspect was enroute to another target and got stopped enroute to.

Some reports say they drove around a roadblock against police instructions. Lights off. Given the totality of the facts and situation, I would hold back till all the facts can be presented.
They've lawyered up... Attorney Glen Jonas said...
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:53   #29
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They've lawyered up... Attorney Glen Jonas said...
To be honest, I would have too. Very likely the City Attorney will just cut a check and be done with it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:57   #30
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CaCop

As the Graham factors go, evidently driving anything vaguely ressembling a pickup is going to figure high in the argument. Officers also fired on a Honda "pickup" in Redondo Beach.

Objectively reasonable uses of force? I dunno. Like I said, I wouldn't drive a pickup out there now.

See photo No. 40 here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...6.photogallery
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:06   #31
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Some reports say they drove around a roadblock against police instructions. Lights off. Given the totality of the facts and situation, I would hold back till all the facts can be presented.
And the lawyer, in the story linked above, says LEOs guarding the home of some brass fired without any commands to the driver first. So We'll have to see.

Good time to be driving a Mini Cooper convertible, I'd say.
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:14   #32
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And the lawyer, in the story linked above, says LEOs guarding the home of some brass fired without any commands to the driver first. So We'll have to see.

Good time to be driving a Mini Cooper convertible, I'd say.
100% right, we will have to wait for the process to work itself out. Except he burned his truck so he could be driving anything now.
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Old 02-08-2013, 16:23   #33
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They've lawyered up... Attorney Glen Jonas said...
That was the women's attorney. In this state I can't think of a single OIS where the officer(s) did not have an attorney present for questioning. I call my LDF fund for an attorney when I get accused of being "rude" when I take people to jail. It helps to keep bosses in check.

As for the no warning...did they not hear it or was one not given...or did they ignore it and not care.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 02-08-2013, 17:42   #34
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He's just proving that policeman are flawed people too, so an LEO exception in gun control legislation is stupid. Bills without the exception will never be okayed by powerful police unions.
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